Fame and Fortune

[judas69]

Is it all it's cracked up to be?

I'll stream a bit on this when I get up but I am interested to hear what you guys think after all, celebrity and wealth are strong motivating factors in society, perhaps more than anything else.

 

[Horus]

Fame, fortune and celebrity status are such trivial things, tht people look at and say "Why? Why teh hell is it so popular?" And I finally realized why. It's all a marketing campaign. I know it's old news, but that's not the important part yet. The part that I just thought about, because I never really thought that this required as much thought as it apparently does, is that this huge marketing campaign is what keeps this country alive. Without these stupid, vain advertisement brainwashing campaigns, nobody would buy anything, and the country would most likely be much slower moving than it is now. (I feel like a conspiracy theorist right now.)

But back to the original point, fame and fortune are really not all that they're cracked up to be. People who spend ungodly amounts of money on stuff that they're not even gonna be using anymore a week later really are just examples of the grand raping of the American Dream, especially since alot of people didn't even do anything to earn what they have. Conspicuous Consumption is really more of a moral nightmare disguised as a dream, in that when you're able to buy anything you want, it leaves nothing to be desired. And when you do desire something, you're immediately satisfied. It leaves very little possibility for real satisfaction. And there's no risk, because you can just buy your way out of any and all trouble you encounter. The only real bad thing about fame and fortune is Papa Razzi invading your personal life. I know that if I had cameras hounding me everywhere I went, I'd kill myself, especially because my privacy is my sanctuary.
It is cool to have lots of money and nice cars and everything that your heart desires at your fingertips, but it's really not worth anything in the long run. Especially when it's the same kind of scenario that almost every single 9/11 family living on the North Shore of Long Island experienced. I didn't go through this whole phase, because my mom was actually smart about what we did with our money. But this is what usually happens when people go from middle class to rich overnight:
1. They get the money
2. They spend the money
3. They have no money
I've met lots of other 9/11 families, and I've seen the progression with my own eyes. Other kids questioned me for not buying new clothes and fancy cars and new houses, and when I tried to explain that I didn't need all that and that the money couldn't bring my father back, they looked at me and I bet some of them were laughing on the inside. But I was only in like 7th Grade, so it's kindof easy to understand why Middle School kids would look at that as stupid.

All in all, to answer Judas' question...

No, it's not worth it. The greed, sloth and vanity that come with money are enough of a hell in themselves to make me prefer not to be rich,

 

[judas69]

Fame and fortune to me, boils down to the human desire to be loved and to have control, and to want as much as one can possibly get.

We all want to be loved and no one sets limits to the amount of love they could or should have. More love, more money, more power and more control. Fame surely brings a lot of love and admiration, but if you've ever seen a female in her teens and in the presence of some boy band for example, you'll notice a personality change and an "all or nothing" emotional / sexual response. Underwear will start flying, breasts will suddenly want to be signed. Who is this monster? And does it lie at the heart of everyone?

I think the bigger issue is probably not so much the annoyance and eventual boredom of becoming filthy rich and always being in the spotlight (though this is certainly what happens) but probably more the way people around you start to change. It is interesting how quickly enemies become friends and how people (complete strangers) will fight to work their way into the lives of the famous for a least a glimpse, if not more.

Money, changes people. It changes the person who is rich of course, but I think it probably changes everyone else around him to an even greater degree and subsequently, the world becomes an extended needy hand, the people become phony, and the love becomes shallow and empty (to the rich and famous).

That said, and even if we accept all this as truth, why do we still desire it?

 

[Horus]

We accept it, because that's what we're taught to accept. We're taught to accept it, whether we like it or not, because we see it being glorified every day, by stuff as blatantly obvious as watching tv shows like MTV Cribs, to anything that you look at and say something along the lines of "Oh, I want that so badly, but I can't afford it."

As for other people changing, yes, that's very true. People will be fake for attention or some other sort of satisfaction that'll earn them popularity points... Did I say earn? I meant steal. They're not actually doing anything of real merit to earn peoples' trust, only hanging around people who've earned trust. But it still doesn't answer Judas' question as to why people do it, unless people really are so shallow as to only be craving nothing more than attention.

 

[judas69]

I'm curious if anyone here has ever become obsessed with an actor, actress, band to the point of feeling you had to find out more about them and wanting to be more like them or even having been instilled with a need to want to contact them?

For myself, the show La Femme Nikita created this weird sort of obsession in me with the actress Peta Wilson. Of course she's hot, but most actresses are these days anyway so, it was clearly much more than that and I really can't explain it. Can anyone relate to, or make sense of, this feeling? I cannot watch an episode of the show without getting this feeling ..not even the opening credits! The music, all of the actors, very strange.

 

[hibernal_dream]

Fame, fortune and celebrity status are such trivial things, tht people look at and say "Why? Why teh hell is it so popular?" And I finally realized why. It's all a marketing campaign. I know it's old news, but that's not the important part yet. The part that I just thought about, because I never really thought that this required as much thought as it apparently does, is that this huge marketing campaign is what keeps this country alive. Without these stupid, vain advertisement brainwashing campaigns, nobody would buy anything, and the country would most likely be much slower moving than it is now. (I feel like a conspiracy theorist right now.)

But back to the original point, fame and fortune are really not all that they're cracked up to be. People who spend ungodly amounts of money on stuff that they're not even gonna be using anymore a week later really are just examples of the grand raping of the American Dream, especially since alot of people didn't even do anything to earn what they have. Conspicuous Consumption is really more of a moral nightmare disguised as a dream, in that when you're able to buy anything you want, it leaves nothing to be desired. And when you do desire something, you're immediately satisfied. It leaves very little possibility for real satisfaction. And there's no risk, because you can just buy your way out of any and all trouble you encounter. The only real bad thing about fame and fortune is Papa Razzi invading your personal life. I know that if I had cameras hounding me everywhere I went, I'd kill myself, especially because my privacy is my sanctuary.
It is cool to have lots of money and nice cars and everything that your heart desires at your fingertips, but it's really not worth anything in the long run. Especially when it's the same kind of scenario that almost every single 9/11 family living on the North Shore of Long Island experienced. I didn't go through this whole phase, because my mom was actually smart about what we did with our money. But this is what usually happens when people go from middle class to rich overnight:
1. They get the money
2. They spend the money
3. They have no money
I've met lots of other 9/11 families, and I've seen the progression with my own eyes. Other kids questioned me for not buying new clothes and fancy cars and new houses, and when I tried to explain that I didn't need all that and that the money couldn't bring my father back, they looked at me and I bet some of them were laughing on the inside. But I was only in like 7th Grade, so it's kindof easy to understand why Middle School kids would look at that as stupid.

All in all, to answer Judas' question...

No, it's not worth it. The greed, sloth and vanity that come with money are enough of a hell in themselves to make me prefer not to be rich,

Just 3 points.
1. Can we answer these questions of whether being rich and famous is what it is cracked up to be when we're not rich and famous ourselves? A contrary answer would be along lines of the old 'you can't denounce it unless you've done it'. What is it's internal impact on a person? It might have a psychological effect stemming from greed and desire but it might not. On the other hand, we could empirically observe those who have become rich and famous and look at the effect it has had on them.
2. So how do we know that those who have attained money and fame don't possess the satisfaction and happiness that you renounce as a consequence of being victims of consumerism. I too have observed that celebrities are often depressed. Could it be because they have nothing else that is fulfilling in their lives other than money and fame? Of course, this would fail to attribute a positive impact of fame which is the subject of the original question, but perhaps they have abused the money or are simply the down on their luck. In this case it wouldn't be the money and fame itself that is acting negatively on the person, but simply that the person has not done what is required to reap the benefits of them. I think money can be beneficial if it's put to good use - it depends what you want to do with it, and whether the ends are good ends. We can ask the question "are books all they are cracked up to be?" Well, yes, but not if they are eaten.
3. It's difficult to analyse fame outside the context of modern society. It would be pretty safe to say that fame was useful in the Roman Empire for being elected to high positions, and money was extremely beneficial if you wanted to bribe someone. Popularity is useful for the same purpose in democratic society. Some might not want these high positions, but for those who do, it's definitely a plus. Clearly, from a sexual selection point of view, if you're a film or rock star, fame is great for getting laid but whether this would be a benefit is another question. On the down side, you can't leave your house without being recognise and will probably end up being isolated from reality and the rest of the real world.

By the way judas69, La Femme Nikita was great. I can't say that I was very keen on Peta though, her character wasn't the strongest and it was more the other characters and plot that did it for me.

 

[Horus]

Just 3 points.
1. Can we answer these questions of whether being rich and famous is what it is cracked up to be when we're not rich and famous ourselves? A contrary answer would be along lines of the old 'you can't denounce it unless you've done it'. What is it's internal impact on a person? It might have a psychological effect stemming from greed and desire but it might not. On the other hand, we could empirically observe those who have become rich and famous and look at the effect it has had on them.

I have empirically observed people who've become rich, and the effect it had on them. They actually did become vain, snoody and ridiculously annoying.

2. So how do we know that those who have attained money and fame don't possess the satisfaction and happiness that you renounce as a consequence of being victims of consumerism. I too have observed that celebrities are often depressed. Could it be because they have nothing else that is fulfilling in their lives other than money and fame? Of course, this would fail to attribute a positive impact of fame which is the subject of the original question, but perhaps they have abused the money or are simply the down on their luck. In this case it wouldn't be the money and fame itself that is acting negatively on the person, but simply that the person has not done what is required to reap the benefits of them. I think money can be beneficial if it's put to good use - it depends what you want to do with it, and whether the ends are good ends. We can ask the question "are books all they are cracked up to be?" Well, yes, but not if they are eaten.

You raise a good point here. The only thing that I can say to that is that of the people I have witnessed, they didn't do anything worthwhile with it. They didn't put it in the bank, buy stocks, or donate any of it. They went out and bought new clothes and cars and new stuff to further satisfy their already over-satisfied selves. Of course, it may in fact be very different with someone who really does choose to do something productive when they recieve money.

3. It's difficult to analyse fame outside the context of modern society. It would be pretty safe to say that fame was useful in the Roman Empire for being elected to high positions, and money was extremely beneficial if you wanted to bribe someone. Popularity is useful for the same purpose in democratic society. Some might not want these high positions, but for those who do, it's definitely a plus. Clearly, from a sexual selection point of view, if you're a film or rock star, fame is great for getting laid but whether this would be a benefit is another question. On the down side, you can't leave your house without being recognise and will probably end up being isolated from reality and the rest of the real world.

Imho, when a person recieves sexual benefits, it means absolutely nothing. If anything, it would compell me to look at them not as highly as I did previously, because it just makes them either a whore, or a sex addict, depending on how many people desire to have sex with said individual.

 

[hibernal_dream]

Imho, when a person recieves sexual benefits, it means absolutely nothing. If anything, it would compell me to look at them not as highly as I did previously, because it just makes them either a whore, or a sex addict, depending on how many people desire to have sex with said individual.

That's my view too, but what I was alluding to was the "benefit" of sexual selection - Darwin considered this beneficial along with natural selection to increase reproductive success. Although that's mostly irrelevant, it could be a factor in considering the original question of whether money/fame is worth it.

 

[schivmeister]

i would like to emphasize, or rather elaborate, on the issue of sex and what part it plays in FAME.

it is evident that SEX is really a big player when it comes to fame. believe me, i'v heard about and watched alot of such "famous", or rather "popular" beings living their lives like WHORES and JERKS, indeed. The kind of fame im talking about in this example is really very minimal..stuff like bands, rockers, all small-time yet still bearing the popularity tag in their own fields. So this, when enlarged, in a bigger scale factor, actually is somehow directly proportional to the variable in concern - sex. The more popular u are, the more sex u get, more easily. Mayb it is not a big issue when ur famous (as in big deal famous) because by then, it is already a "100% satisfaction guaranteed" thing.

I personally have faced this situation. Lets not use the word popular or famous in my case because i was never there..but i find it funny how the simplest of simple media-emphasized rock competitions could generate "fans". Encounters with fans of the oppositte sex CAN, and usually do in some cases, end up in bed. But at that scale, ur fans are merely ur newfound friends. The words here may be "known by more". So more ppl know u, they wanna get to know u. Often, there is a form of attraction which is usually physical. Hence, sex.

If ur a rocker, a well known one at that, u would have ur own circle of friends. The friends u generate are probably new..and depending on the type of person u are, u either refrain from acting against ur morals, or u go ahead and have fun like u'v never had - because ur now on a stage which is higher up than u were before. The Emocore scene here where i live tends to b famous for bearing the title "The Orgy Scene"..often the girls into such scenes are wild. Wild girls = easy lay. For the Metal and Rock scenes, i have to say there is no difference, they also have a fair share of wild girls.

We have heard of prominent figures getting caught in scandals and such. Why is that so? Because it is hard for them to refrain from these attractions popularity has introduced them to. Yes, most if not all kinds of fame usually do take away ur morals.

As for judas' last question, yes i have been there. When i was younger, just 2 to 3 years back. Until 17 or 18, lets b honest, the maturity doesnt show up. Im being abit kind here, the age scale may b far higher in reality. Im 17 now but i think i have grown out of it..i no longer dream of becoming "that person in that band". But talking of dreams, i still do wonder whether i'd b "up there like that band". But thats not due to fame or fortune, its passion for me. And a goal i want to achieve.

As for wealth, some people are born to aim for the big pot of gold. Fortune here, lets put it in the scale of filthy rich. Because i for one, would like to be financially free when im older with a family, but i wouldnt want my photos to be all around the media every single day. Nor would i want high security prisons, aka "secured homes and lifestyle with bodyguards". There are two kinds of rich in this world, and those are the humble ones and the all-out big spenders. The big spenders, are NOT the ideal models obviously. If u grow up in such a family, u'll never know life in its real form. I see alot of good points brought up in this thread, a big read tho. I have to get back because im sleepy.

 

[Horus]

As far as Natural Selection goes, people seem to think that if they have a rockstar's kid, theat kid is gonna grow up to be a star.
There are countless Celebrities who happen to be fat slobs with no manners at all, yet people still wish to mate with them. Why? Because they're celebrities. Otherwise, why else would they do it? Of course, this doen't include Rockstars' wives.
Unfortunately, this still doesn't really provide a definitive answer to Judas' question. Sexual benefits might be one thing that people find most attractive about being a celebrity, and any moron can identify this just by watching a rap video. But Sex can't possibly be the only thing that makes fame and fortune worth having. If not that though, then what? Friends? Material objects? Drugs, perhaps?

 

[Norsemaiden]

All the above post are very insightful. This is really a subject with many aspects to consider.
There is clearly a difference between wanting the kind of fame that lasts for a part of (or the whole of) one's life, and wanting fame that lasts far beyond that. There are no sexual benefits for being famous as a historical figure after death.

Vikings very much valued fame, more in this long-lasting sense.

Wealth dies, kinsmen die, a man himself must likewise die; but word fame never dies, for him who achieves it well.

From Havamal

But here is a thought - if you wish to be famous for something lasting long after your death, then to what extent is it you who is remembered or is it really that the thing itself is remembered but you are no more than a kind of avatar accompanying it? Perhaps the desire should be the achievement to contribute something to the world that is of significance after your death - rather than to have you persona remembered (unless your personality is particularly remarkable and exemplary) and, in the end, it isn't really yourself that is immortalised in that achievement, but the contribution you made.

But then, coming down to it, suppose you were a famous celebrity right now. How much is it really you that people know, and how much is it a kind of public persona that the famous person is kind of acting as and trying to live up to? I have heard an actress saying how she has to have a certain appearance and behaviour in public as it is expected of her "to be this person" - as if her real self was not "this person" but someone not at all famous and very private.

 

[schivmeister]

Very good examples would b the ones we read about in our History books. Men and Women who have left their traces..unerasable traces. These great ones, they have had their aims and goals set up early. But i doubt these men, did it for fame. For wealth and for power, yes. Fame was just a step that helped them gain that wealth and power. Do u not agree?