For those that download music

[Mortal_Dezire]

What if playing guitar IS my job, bud?
Try telling the thousands of session musicians out there to get a job. MUSIC IS THERE JOB!
A graphic designer is, essentially, an artist.
Does he get paid? *SURVEY SAYS...* YES!!!
Is it his job to make art? YES AGAIN!!!
You wanna starve? Starve. I don't give a shit. As I stated earlier, that's your choice. Do what you want, hippie.
People like you, who steal music, are causing me and my family to starve and you all think that its ok. That pisses me off.
You're killing the industry and you're making it more difficult to create this thing called "art." Because in this day and age, guess what you need to be able to make your art available to all? What do I need when I break a guitar string? What do I need when my guitar gets stolen by some idiot crack head? What is it that the bar owner, the booking agent, and jack asses like you are trying to always screw me out of?

MONEY
MONEY
MONEY!!!!!

Yes, what we do as musicians is an art form. But that doesn't give you the right to blatantly rip someone off and then hide behind the guise of "oh, it's art. I don't have to pay for that because its alive and no one owns it."
Fuck You
Go back to your cofee shop with the rest of the beetnic shitheads and kiss my ass.

 

[prowlergrig]

it amuses me how upset you're getting over this when i've clearly stated in the beginning that i'm naive and my views may change over time

i never said it's alive and no one owns it. i'm not trying to screw you out of anything. i agree the situation sucks and maybe i'm not making it any better.
if you think arguing with me will put food on your table, go ahead

 

[Kazrog]

And now for a different perspective...

While we argue about this incredibly unfair court ruling, the music industry is dying and music itself is very quickly becoming FREE across the board. I agree that this state of affairs is fucking up a lot of people's lives right now. Peer-to-peer downloading IS killing the music industry and essentially bankrupting thousands of people.

However, the bigger issue is: can the world economy transition into a new era where intellectual property is free for all to consume? Can the authors of this intellectual property support themselves solely on their creations?

Because FREE is where this is going. No matter who fights this change, the change is swift and overpowering. What we call "piracy" in today's context will lose the stigma and will be the way in which information, art, music, literature, film, etc. are distributed from now on.

For people like all of us who create music - the money has to come from somewhere as long as there are bills to pay - which is why this informational exchange will have to be monetized in other ways, for example advertising. We have some rough/transitional times ahead, and I have a lot of ideas for how this COULD work, but all of them are highly experimental.

I still support the artists I like by buying their CDs and DVDs. I buy at least 1 CD a month, often closer to 5 or 6. I like the quality that CDs offer, and I consider myself somewhat of an audiophile, so mp3s and iTunes Store downloads don't cut it for listening at home or A/B'ing with my mixes. But what happens when lossy audio compression is a thing of the past as bandwidth naturally increases? Then CDs will be truly obsolete and the need for a physical disc will be evaporated completely.

Remember: as long as music can be heard, it can be copied. As long as the internet exists, there will be music exchanged freely. You're either in control of that free exchange, or you're out of control of that free exchange. Either way, the price is free.

Don't mistake me for arguing in favor of this change - I'm simply pointing out what I perceive to be its inevitability. It is scary.

 

[elmuchoescadawg]

it amuses me how upset you're getting over this when i've clearly stated in the beginning that i'm naive and my views may change over time

You do seem to be trying to provoke a reaction. Maybe you should rejoin the discussion when youve grown up a bit? You know ,when your view have changed over time.

If I were you Id be carefull admiting to illegal downloading when youve got so many links on your profile to find you with. Im not threatening you, just saying.

best of luck to you and your musical career. Im out.

 

[prowlergrig]

it wasn't my intention to provoke anyone. but you're right, it may have been a mistake to post this. best of luck to you as well

 

[STINNETT]

I'm not a supporter of piracy either, but I do rather see it as an inevitable consequence of the technology that everyone (including those getting ripped off) is hungering for. My contempt for that technology keeps me from feeling too sorry for anybody, maybe that's wrong...
Anyway, I somewhat agree with Kazrog and his post. In the end, it's just another way that the internet has cheapened and degraded something else about our society.

Did I mention that I fucking hate the internet?

I hate that there is really nothing exclusive about buying or owning an album. When I buy a brand new album, I know that millions of douchebags have already downloaded it, dissected it, added it to their myspace, and ripped off the riffs for the "new album" that they're whipping up using a pirated copy of Cubase. Sure, I could isolate my emotions from the rest of the world and not care about that stuff, but it's pretty much impossible.

As much as I benefit from the internet, I can still honestly say that I prefered life before it ever came around. I prefered waiting for new albums to come out and having to order shit from catalogs. I prefered going to the library to learn about stuff. I prefered tape trading. I prefered reading magazines to learn about new bands. I prefered it when everyone had a place and wasn't a wikipedia fucking universal expert. Even as much as I love modern home recording technology, I actually prefered the feeling I got from recording total shit on my Tascam 4 track.

Some people would call this left over resentment for having to do it all the hard way, but I say bullshit. The hard way was better for everybody.
(including the music industry) That sounds like a stuffy old bastard doesn't it?

Well, there's a bit of that rant I said I wasn't going to do.....

 

[sparkyness]

..... That sounds like a stuffy old bastard doesn't it?

I was just about to suggest that

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment either....I used to feel similiarly and still do, to an extent. I've just stopped thinking about what everyone else does and concentrate on how I live my life. I ain't perfect either....

 

[Metaltastic]

And now for a different perspective...

While we argue about this incredibly unfair court ruling, the music industry is dying and music itself is very quickly becoming FREE across the board. I agree that this state of affairs is fucking up a lot of people's lives right now. Peer-to-peer downloading IS killing the music industry and essentially bankrupting thousands of people.

However, the bigger issue is: can the world economy transition into a new era where intellectual property is free for all to consume? Can the authors of this intellectual property support themselves solely on their creations?

Because FREE is where this is going. No matter who fights this change, the change is swift and overpowering. What we call "piracy" in today's context will lose the stigma and will be the way in which information, art, music, literature, film, etc. are distributed from now on.

For people like all of us who create music - the money has to come from somewhere as long as there are bills to pay - which is why this informational exchange will have to be monetized in other ways, for example advertising. We have some rough/transitional times ahead, and I have a lot of ideas for how this COULD work, but all of them are highly experimental.

I still support the artists I like by buying their CDs and DVDs. I buy at least 1 CD a month, often closer to 5 or 6. I like the quality that CDs offer, and I consider myself somewhat of an audiophile, so mp3s and iTunes Store downloads don't cut it for listening at home or A/B'ing with my mixes. But what happens when lossy audio compression is a thing of the past as bandwidth naturally increases? Then CDs will be truly obsolete and the need for a physical disc will be evaporated completely.

Remember: as long as music can be heard, it can be copied. As long as the internet exists, there will be music exchanged freely. You're either in control of that free exchange, or you're out of control of that free exchange. Either way, the price is free.

Don't mistake me for arguing in favor of this change - I'm simply pointing out what I perceive to be its inevitability. It is scary.

Damn good point dude, and probably the most truth I've read in this whole thread. As a 20-year-old, I'm young enough not to be tied to the notions of "the good ol' days before the internet" because I never experienced them, and I'm able to see that more than likely you're right. I guess all I'd care about then in that circumstance is that intellectual property still remains property, and that the widespread distribution doesn't destroy people's claim on their creations.

 

[sparkyness]

Brief report on UK download trends from the BBC:

More than £160m will be spent on music and video downloads in the UK this year, according to a forecast. Market analysts Verdict said digital downloads will be worth £163m in 2007 - up 45.5% on last year. And digital spending will continue to soar, reaching £600m a year by 2012, according to Verdict's UK Music and Video Retailers 2007 report.

But CD and DVD spending has slowed, it said, with the overall UK music and video market down 2.9% to £4bn in 2007. Verdict analyst Nick Gladding said: "While piracy will continue and CD volumes will decline further, retailers generally are now better placed to cope with new market challenges."

-------------

Perhaps the first real signs of a change in business model that's working? CD sales are down, but the industry is diversifying.....

 

[Id]

currently downloading the testament discography

 

[Id]

also burning it

 

[James Murphy]

this "debate" has turned into a joke where people are actually supporting theories that "art is free" and such horse-shit that flies in the face of history.. .cuz it's never been free, not even going back hundreds of years... the Mona Lisa wasn't free, and neither were Beethoven's Symphonies, etc. etc. etc. that's life... and the thread's attracting trolls now to top it off... a sure sign it needs to just come to an end.

people will keep downloading/uploading.... band's and music will suffer in general.... good productions by and large take time and money and effort, so shit is what shit is..... call it a golden rainbow of free goodies or call it a stinking pile of shit.. it is what it is... and the lawsuits will continue too.

do as you will.... just don't tell yourself that "art is free" or some other load of bollocks like that... and don't expect me to feel bad for you in ten years when your fave bands are all mostly gone and every new band sounds like a POD 6.0 and DHFS 8.3.

beaten down subject at this point... and we all lose.

 

[slashvanyoung]

this "debate" has turned into a joke where people are actually supporting theories that "art is free" and such horse-shit that flies in the face of history.. .cuz it's never been free, not even going back hundreds of years... the Mona Lisa wasn't free, and neither were Beethoven's Symphonies, etc. etc. etc. that's life...

I know what you mean, but I don't think it's 100% right. Because art can be free and there has always been free art around. There have always been artists playing their music for free or giving away their paintings, records etc. (and that doesn't necessarily say something about the quality). In fact, I don't think there has ever been more "free" art around than nowadays, especially concerning music (just think about all the artists making some songs or even whole records available for free download). But that decision should remain in the hands of the artists and record companies. And that's the problem, instead of appreciating the fact that they get more stuff for free than ever, people abuse their power and make that decision on their own.

In the pre-recoding era music has basically been a service like every other supply of service, too. But with having the music on a record, artists had to encounter completely new market-rules that apply to products instead of services. And (economically speaking) with piracy annulling the "law of shortness" the traditional market is doomed to fail. Which is basically what you said later on:

people will keep downloading/uploading.... band's and music will suffer in general.... good productions by and large take time and money and effort, so shit is what shit is..... call it a golden rainbow of free goodies or call it a stinking pile of shit.. it is what it is... and the lawsuits will continue too.

do as you will.... just don't tell yourself that "art is free" or some other load of bollocks like that... and don't expect me to feel bad for you in ten years when your fave bands are all mostly gone and every new band sounds like a POD 6.0 and DHFS 8.3.

beaten down subject at this point... and we all lose.

So now we see the "service aspect" of being a musician (aka touring your ass off) becoming more important again (like it used to be once). So the music itself will survive as long as anybody enjoys making it, but with that transition we all lose a lot... the artists, the fans, the companies involved... everyone.

 

[James Murphy]

yes yes,... anyone can give anything away free that's theirs to give if that's what they want to do... i just didn't feel it was necessary to point out something so obvious... i've seen people giving away cars, but i don't think you would make the argument that because of that all cars should be free.... and you got part of my meaning wrong later.. i do not feel that it's "inevitable" that music must become "free" across the board.

just let this die... please... jesus. no more comments necessary. i don't care to debate my viewpoint further and no one else is going to change theirs....and nobody cares. done.

 

[Nebulous]

currently downloading the testament discography

I'll be laughing at you when someone breaks into your house and steals your stereo, mp3 player and anythnig else of value that you've worked your ass off for.



Unless you actually own the whole Testament discography already.

 

[Kazrog]

Here's Seth Godin's take on things:

Radiohead and the mediocre middle

I got a ton of email this week about the Radiohead rollout. The short version: Radiohead (a million-selling rock band) launched their new album as a pay-what-you-want MP3 combined with an expensive boxed set. This is the sort thing I've been talking about for seven years and many unknown bands have been doing for at least that long.

A lot of pundits have jumped in and talked about how this is the next big thing. That the music industry is finally waking up and realizing that they can't change the world... that the world is changing them.

But that's not the really useful insight here. The question is: why did it take so long, and why did we see it from Prince (CD in the newspaper), Madonna ($120 mm to leave her label and go to a concert promoter) and Radiohead?

Most industries innovate from both ends:

The outsiders go first because they have nothing to lose.
The winners go next because they can afford to and they want to stay winners.
It's the mediocre middle that sits and waits and watches.
The mediocre record companies, mediocre A&R guys and the mediocre acts are struggling to stay in place. They're nervous that it all might fall apart. So they wait. They wait for 'proof' that this new idea is going to work, or at least won't prove fatal. (It's the impulse to wait that made them mediocre in the first place, of course).

So, in every industry, the middle waits. And watches. And then, once they realize they can survive the switch (or once they're persuaded that their current model is truly fading away), they jump in.

The irony, of course, is that by jumping in last, they're condemning themselves to more mediocrity.

 

[James Murphy]

shane... damn it man... LET IT DIE! Besides, i seem to recall you recently sending me several of your CD's to help you SHOP FOR A RECORD DEAL. it is irresponsible to represent to unknown bands that they can have the power to pull off "going it alone" in the way Prince, Madonna, and Radiohead are.... especially when PRINCE HIMSELF has publicly stated that he would never have done it had he not already been successful...drop it drop it drop it..... this thread is confusing the issue, not helping it... so DROP IT. good records are what it takes to make it... good records and publicity... most new bands cannot afford these on their own. Record companies are still indispensable for most bands hoping to make it from obscurity and not much money. period. there are too many bands trying the DIY approach right now.. and failing... and eventually giving up the fight and signing with labels... JFAC, In This Moment, Suicide Silence.... on and on, so quit spewing this noise.... all you're doing is calling everyone mediocre if they want a label and it's insulting and flies in the face of CURRENT logical practice. i'm sorry, the "collapse of the labels" is NOT imminent , certainly not in the next 5 years and probably longer, and career opportunity windows open and close rapidly for many bands within that kind of time frame. the best, and as far as i'm concerned only real, bet for "making it" DIY style is still to first make it on a label. i'm not ignorant of current market trends, and i'm not mediocre... and i resent your insinuations... and i'll bet the contents of my savings account that if i were to call you tonight and tell you i found you label that is interested you'd be on the phone with the A&R guy tomorrow. let's call a horse a horse here.... it's not a unicorn, ok? you're coming off like an overzealous "Born Again" X-tian with this shite.

still love ya though buddy.

thread over please.

 

[Kazrog]

James, I wasn't trying to insinuate that labels have no place or that anyone here is mediocre. Seth Godin is a respected author and businessman, so his perspective is interesting, but I don't agree with everything he says.

I honestly don't pretend to know where this is all headed. My goal was to get everyone past the "downloading is hurting musicians" vs. the "downloading isn't hurting musicians" because the truth is, it absolutely is fucking us all over. In other words - I was trying to end this discussion just as much as you were.

I'm not anti-label, they're not the problem here. Can they be the solution? Sure, if they allow themselves to experiment and adapt over time. After all, they even better ability than any of these artists to give away music to a larger pool of fans, and support it through bigger advertising tie-ins, etc. I'm not saying I know how to solve all of their problems, or that advertising solely is the silver-bullet solution, and I certainly think CDs and DVDs still have a place (at least for a while) but I think that some experimentation with the business model would be to the benefit of labels and artists.

 

[egan.]

The thing with me is, I remember a time before the internet, before MP3's, where physically owning an album was one of the coolest parts of the whole thing. Alot of young people don't share that point of view.

So true. The scariest part is that the age divide is almost visible. It's like the difference in being born before 1980 or after '84---Not to say that there aren't plenty of people downloading (or not) in all age groups.

But, I do think a whole generation has missed out on the youthful excitement of running to the record store the day something comes out and freaking out over it and sitting down and reading all the lyrics and checking out the layout while you listen to it 4 times in a row.
I wouldn't trade those experiences for my ipod that's for sure.

 

[STINNETT]

So true. The scariest part is that the age divide is almost visible. It's like the difference in being born before 1980 or after '84---Not to say that there aren't plenty of people downloading (or not) in all age groups.

But, I do think a whole generation has missed out on the youthful excitement of running to the record store the day something comes out and freaking out over it and sitting down and reading all the lyrics and checking out the layout while you listen to it 4 times in a row.
I wouldn't trade those experiences for my ipod that's for sure.

Thanks. I was beginning to think that everyone here just thought I was a disagreeable old bastard.