Freedom for Sale

S4R

gooey
Sep 7, 2001
8,574
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.il.us
I can't tolerate that I have lost my right here in the USA to not have a bunch of feds kick in my door because my neighbor saw a white powder on my doorknob. Why don't we just get this entire ordeal over with and have a national auction, we'll call it "Freedoms for Cameras peering into your bedroom while you fuck your wife." There, I have ranted.



P.S. People need to start paying attention to all these laws Congress is passing. Eventually everyone is going to feel the huge government dick up their ass, but by then it may be too late.
 
why don't i mind this? i think people make way too big a deal about "the government" meddling in their business. it's quite ironic -- i don't trust people, yet for some reason i basically, overall trust the government (even though it's just people too). i don't know why. if i had a white powder on my doorknob, the feds better damn well be investigating it! but maybe i'm just a bit more jumpy because i work for a news agency in the DC area, so...:rolleyes:
 
PPL doesnt over react. At some point in my life i had the same reaction about ppl in general and by now im so used to it and im so pessimistic about ppl that ppl leading ppl doesnt seem to hold any surprises at all. What it would surprise me its a goverment that is honest, open without secrets and actually works
 
Originally posted by _Transparent_
shit, people are over reacting, but then i don't blame them. its just stupid to hear about what happened to you. i suppose youve learnt a lesson here, kill your neighbours. :heh:


What I said never happened to me actually, I was just making a hypothetical. It worries me when people begin to trade in freedoms for "security" that will never be truly effective.
 
Originally posted by Soul4Raziel



What I said never happened to me actually, I was just making a hypothetical. It worries me when people begin to trade in freedoms for "security" that will never be truly effective.

well dont i feel stupid now :rolleyes: , hmn, i thought so but then what the fudge do i know, hmn , should have guessed with that Homer avatar too :loco:
 
Originally posted by Lina
i think people make way too big a deal about "the government" meddling in their business.

Ever read 1984? Of course the horrible ideas about total surveillance developed there are quite as exaggerated as demands for an "inactive" government would be, but anyway it's the most important thing to find a certain balance between these extremes - and to keep the government from disrupting it, no matter how dangerous a political situation may be.

Well, maybe I'm just overreacting a little bit, but here in Germany some :mad: politicians seem to try to take advantage of the people's fears and suggest measures like including fingerprints in id cards, which probably will improve internal security by granting the government access to every cititzens biometric data. But would that really help to fight terrorism? Probably not...
Another politician declared that, in order to preserve our freedom, it would be necessary to strengthen the police's rights and allow the army to support them. But can you really save people's freedom and liberty by limiting their rights in favor of the police? Probably not...

Of course you might now tell me, that I'm just making "way too big deal about the government meddling in my business" - but I, for my part, would not trust any government so much that I would equip it with dictatorial powers, and if some "trusted government" listens to your phone calls, reads your mail and now even tries to take everyone's fingerprints, this sounds to me pretty much like a great step into this very direction.
 
Originally posted by Rakshasa
Ever read 1984? Of course the horrible ideas about total surveillance developed there are quite as exaggerated as demands for an "inactive" government would be, but anyway it's the most important thing to find a certain balance between these extremes - and to keep the government from disrupting it, no matter how dangerous a political situation may be.

Well, maybe I'm just overreacting a little bit, but here in Germany some :mad: politicians seem to try to take advantage of the people's fears and suggest measures like including fingerprints in id cards, which probably will improve internal security by granting the government access to every cititzens biometric data. But would that really help to fight terrorism? Probably not...
Another politician declared that, in order to preserve our freedom, it would be necessary to strengthen the police's rights and allow the army to support them. But can you really save people's freedom and liberty by limiting their rights in favor of the police? Probably not...

Of course you might now tell me, that I'm just making "way too big deal about the government meddling in my business" - but I, for my part, would not trust any government so much that I would equip it with dictatorial powers, and if some "trusted government" listens to your phone calls, reads your mail and now even tries to take everyone's fingerprints, this sounds to me pretty much like a great step into this very direction.
yes, i agree with all of this. now, i don't normally have any faith in american society, but i'm confident it will never be a police state to this extreme degree. when i hear people worrying about the government having record of their fingerprints, etc, it just makes me think, "why are you so worried? if you're not murdering people, you have nothing to worry about. and if you are murdering people, then i want the government to have your goddamn fingerprints!"

let's get real -- if you're not caught up in shady dealings, you have nothing to worry about. the cops have better things to do than sit around listening to you tell your buddy over the phone about the chick you banged last night.

the current bills that are working their way through congress are not as egregious as some paranoid folks would have you believe. they cover things like, not having to get another warrant each time a suspected terrorist enters another county -- and that's county, not country. i think it's ridiculous that you DO have to go through all that paperwork.

if there are more extreme proposals that i'm not aware of, you can bet that they'd never actually be passed. even in the midst of all this frenzy, a politician would never vote for it because it would come out in the next election cycle, and americans have a knee-jerk negative reaction to the words "censorship" and "big government."

it seems that when people fight for less government it's always in the vein of, "give me the right to harm myself." i understand in abstract terms why this is important, but at the same time...i find it annoying. just shut up and be happy your government wants to lessen the chance of you dying in a car accident, being mistakenly shot by a hunter, or contracting anthrax, for example.
 
Originally posted by Lina
the current bills that are working their way through congress are not as egregious as some paranoid folks would have you believe. they cover things like, not having to get another warrant each time a suspected terrorist enters another county -- and that's county, not country. i think it's ridiculous that you DO have to go through all that paperwork.




Maybe so, however, I am worried this may begin to branch into people other than "suspected terrorists" and officials will be able to search anyones home without a warrant.
 
About that fingerprint I.D. thing, down here in Georgia our left and right index finger prints are scanned and put in barcode form on the back of our driver's licensces. I don't know if they actually do anything with it, presumably they can scan it into the computer in the police car for quick identification...

1984 is a great book, if you haven't read it, please do. Some parts actually scare me because it seems like more and more the government is intruding into our lives, and even though the government in Oceana is pretty extreme, I could see it happening in real life...
 
...but i'm confident it will never be a police state to this extreme degree. when i hear people worrying about the government having record of their fingerprints, etc, it just makes me think, "why are you so worried? if you're not murdering people, you have nothing to worry about. and if you are murdering people, then i want the government to have your goddamn fingerprints!"
I'm quite sure, Germany won't either... but isn't it tempting to fight criminals by limiting everyone else's right for privacy?
My problem with a government taking my fingerprints is not, that they might use them to detain some murderers, it's on a more basic level: if you try to stop walking towards a "police state" when you've just arrived, it's a bit too late. Call me paranoid, if you want to, but in order to reach some target, you have to do several smaller steps. And even if a single one of these steps may appear to be completely harmless (be it because of ignorance or because people believe we wont reach the target anyway), they are still steps towards a monster just waiting for us to walk right into its mouth.

the current bills that are working their way through congress are not as egregious as some
paranoid folks would have you believe. they cover things like, not having to get another warrant each time a suspected terrorist enters another county -- and that's county, not country. i think it's ridiculous that you DO have to go through all that paperwork.
I completely agree.
And by the way: those *suggestions* in Germany are *very* unlikely to be realized. But the easiest way to gain votes is to exploit people's fears...

even in the midst of all this frenzy, a politician would never vote for it because it would come out in the next election cycle, and americans have a knee-jerk negative reaction to the words "censorship" and "big government."
WAKE UP!!! Your fellow Americans seem to have an even more negative reaction to the words "terrorism" and "Anthrax"! So if some politician tells them, that in order to fight "terrorism" and "Anthrax" he would have to do "censorship" and create a "big government", what do you think they would choose?

it seems that when people fight for less government it's always in the vein of, "give me the right to harm myself." i understand in abstract terms why this is important, but at the same time...i find it annoying. just shut up and be happy your government wants to lessen the chance of you dying in a car accident, being mistakenly shot by a hunter, or contracting anthrax, for example.
Just in case you haven't noticed: The freedom your president is talking about all the time includes the freedom to even harm yourself, if you like to, and it definitely is not the government's task to meddle into my private life in order to protect me from cutting myself with a knife, as another example...

just shut up and be happy your government wants to lessen the chance of you dying in a car accident, being mistakenly shot by a hunter, or contracting anthrax, for example.
Alright, let's all shut up and wait for our democracies to break apart...
 
Demonic_Figure, I have read 1984. :p I'm saying that I find it implausible that it would actually get to that point.


Originally posted by Rakshasa
My problem with a government taking my fingerprints is not, that they might use them to detain some murderers, it's on a more basic level: if you try to stop walking towards a "police state" when you've just arrived, it's a bit too late. Call me paranoid, if you want to, but in order to reach some target, you have to do several smaller steps. And even if a single one of these steps may appear to be completely harmless (be it because of ignorance or because people believe we wont reach the target anyway), they are still steps towards a monster just waiting for us to walk right into its mouth.
Yes, I understand what you're saying. I just might even agree. ;)


Originally posted by Rakshasa
WAKE UP!!! Your fellow Americans seem to have an even more negative reaction to the words "terrorism" and "Anthrax"! So if some politician tells them, that in order to fight "terrorism" and "Anthrax" he would have to do "censorship" and create a "big government", what do you think they would choose?
Woah, settle down. Yes, I think Americans are willing to have their privacy infringed upon as a result of the anthrax scares, but only to a point. Just my opinion. We don't really know.


Originally posted by Rakshasa
Just in case you haven't noticed: The freedom your president is talking about all the time includes the freedom to even harm yourself, if you like to, and it definitely is not the government's task to meddle into my private life in order to protect me from cutting myself with a knife, as another example...
I'm not talking about you having the right to stab yourself in your own home. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. :p Instead, I'm thinking about the conversations I have with anarchists who insist we don't need traffic lights, background checks for gun purchasers -- well, basically, laws of any kind. i think that's a bit absurd.
 
I don't give a shit if big brother watches more intently, so long as they keep their minds on their jobs of looking for terrorist and leave us misdemeanor criminals alone. The last thing I want is to get busted for picking up little weed or something like that because some gov't spy heard me say something on the phone or read my email. I'm confident it won't come to this however.

Satori
 
Originally posted by Satori
I don't give a shit if big brother watches more intently, so long as they keep their minds on their jobs of looking for terrorist and leave us misdemeanor criminals alone. The last thing I want is to get busted for picking up little weed or something like that because some gov't spy heard me say something on the phone or read my email. I'm confident it won't come to this however.

Satori


I wholeheartedly agree. I find it quite interesting that the feds can bust John Doe with his three pot plants in the middle of Montana, but the cargo bay full of crack cocaine coming in New York harbor somehow "slips" by, :err: