the "accomplishments" of president bush...

[kiyardo]

Uhm, excuse me Unreal Junktardo and Pyrus, I've admitted on several occasions when Next_Profundis was right on major points. You are obviously so close minded by the standard democratic liberal talking points that you sheepishly accept as fact. I think for myself and am a pawn of no one. I disagree with how the Republican's run the government on some issues as well. Look at how they handled the Estrada nomination.

Certainly, I am more conservative than most Republicans, but will defend them when attacked with blatant left wing spin coughed up by Terry McAuliffe, Bill Clinton's little puppet.

 

[Reign in Acai]

stop blaming the president for your miserable life. go fucking get a job and make money. it's called capitalism. stop listening to your gay ass system of a down cd's, wake up, and smell the juan valdez coffee a roastin

 

[kiyardo]

Nah. Kiyardo is ok. I think he is smart, but misguided ('blinded by the right', if you will). He did force me to think and do some research to back my claims, so he has my respect. I still think I'm right though.

Thanks for the respect. Your arguments made me think as well. In both of our arguments we have to be sensative to the facts and in the context they are in. You have made some good points and deserve respect as well.

My 'blindness' is based on idealism in conservatism, which to me make smore sense than liberalism.

 

[speed]

So Kiyardo, you are against the No Child Left Behind Program? If that is the case I agree with you.

Still, I disagree that the Federal gov. should not become more involved with Education. Why? Well, its the simple matter of just how non democratic school systems have become. In my state, the only public schools that are good- are those that have the highest property taxes; i.e. the rich upper class neighborhoods. The slums, lower middle class, and hick schools are so inferior it is disgusting. How one can learn in one of those concentration camps is beyond me. If the Fed gov steps in a bit more, maybe they could at least make the schools a bit more egalitarian.
Kiyardo, are you a product of public schools?

There is an interesting book I was forced to read in college- called Schooled To Order by David Nasaw. Anyway the premise or thesis of the book, was an historical look at how public school was nothing more than a sort of WASP conformity camp for the lower class and immigrants- and this is very much backed up by the history of the Public School System. Although this author Nasaw had an axe to grind with his socialist leanings, his overall thesis I find to hold true to this day. I say this as a product up to high school( when I was sent to a jesuit high school) of public schools, and having both my parents as educators. It seems public schools, are not about learning, as much as they are about imposing order, upon the nations youth.

Yet, I am still appalled at your hatred of the arts- just what kind of conservatism are you preaching here?

 

[Lies and Perfidy]

Profundis, you probably respect kiyardo because this is the first time you've argued with him. He tends to repeat himself a great deal and never posts except to go "Here's why I'm right and you're all wrong about politics." And plus you never saw the Great Weed Debate. Look through a thread called pot smoking and you'll see why we're so frustrated with him.

 

[kiyardo]

So Kiyardo, you are against the No Child Left Behind Program? If that is the case I agree with you.

Yes. I am against it, especially considering that Ted Kennedy wrote the bill. So, when Democrats are rightly criticising Bush on education they are also being critical of Ted Kennedy.

Still, I disagree that the Federal gov. should not become more involved with Education. Why? Well, its the simple matter of just how non democratic school systems have become. In my state, the only public schools that are good- are those that have the highest property taxes; i.e. the rich upper class neighborhoods. The slums, lower middle class, and hick schools are so inferior it is disgusting. How one can learn in one of those concentration camps is beyond me. If the Fed gov steps in a bit more, maybe they could at least make the schools a bit more egalitarian.
Kiyardo, are you a product of public schools?

Yes, and they were good in my area, which was not the most econominically stimulated area in the world. The public school system was mangaed well at the county level. Higher revenue, though has not a lot to do with the quality of schools. Look at D.C.: Their school system is funded much higher than all cities it's size and have the worst education record in the country. They just recently voted in favor for vouchers.

There is an interesting book I was forced to read in college- called Schooled To Order by David Nasaw. Anyway the premise or thesis of the book, was an historical look at how public school was nothing more than a sort of WASP conformity camp for the lower class and immigrants- and this is very much backed up by the history of the Public School System. Although this author Nasaw had an axe to grind with his socialist leanings, his overall thesis I find to hold true to this day. I say this as a product up to high school( when I was sent to a jesuit high school) of public schools, and having both my parents as educators. It seems public schools, are not about learning, as much as they are about imposing order, upon the nations youth.

I tend to agree with you there. In addition, I think that home schooling and private schools are the way to go. The unfortunate thing is that they can be so expensive.

Yet, I am still appalled at your hatred of the arts- just what kind of conservatism are you preaching here?

I think you are grossly misunderstanding me then. I am not against the arts or have any hatred towards them. I listen to the finest art in the world. Metal! What I'm against is the federal funding for art. What I am for is the Smithsonian Institute's budget to maintain art museams, and for state funded art museams. but other than that, there is no Constitutional mandate to 'fund the arts' at the federal level.

 

[kiyardo]

Profundis, you probably respect kiyardo because this is the first time you've argued with him. He tends to repeat himself a great deal and never posts except to go "Here's why I'm right and you're all wrong about politics." And plus you never saw the Great Weed Debate. Look through a thread called pot smoking and you'll see why we're so frustrated with him.

I had to repeat myself in the Great Weed Debate, because all you potheads couldn't remember the last thing I said. ehehehe

Honestly, it was very hard to argue with a guy like ledmag, or whatever his name is. I shouldn't have even tried to reason with him.

Other than that, your just mad because I stood my ground throughout the debate. See Profundis, I hold the radical idea that drugs are bad, and that sobriety is good. I know that's grossly unpopular, So I must be a radical right wing nut for thinking such a thing. LOL

 

[speed]

So Kiyardo, although I contradict myself at times- just what should our gov. do for us? I thought at the very least, it was to supply first rate infrastrucutre- but apparently we are very much behind the times- and need billions upon billions to catch up.

Why should children be forced to go to private schools? How come the Europeans and Japanese can put out first rate students, through their public education system?

I can understand why you think more funding is just a waste- and I somewhat agree, the school districts etc. need to be totally reformed- they are piss poor, and do anything but encourage learning. Another problem is the teaching, I dont know about you, but I had dreadful teachers in public school- I suppose I am tooting my own horn, but I was smarter than most of teachers I had after 5th grade, most of my class was smarter than the teachers we had. I dont know how many young mothers that didnt have a clue about anything other than being grouchy, I had in public schools. I understand that in Europe and Japan, being even a public school teacher is both a well paying job, and a hard one to get- maybe this should be the case here.

I still fail to understand your stand on the arts- Its conservatism gone wacky- you do realize that every great country etc. in history, has been considered great because of its usually state funded artistic and cultural acheivements. I mean Michelangelo, Leonardo, Raphael were supported by different states- and we are better for it. Hell the soviets even supported Prokofiev, Shostakovich. WHy shouldnt we support great art?- it doesnt cost much- and it makes the world a much better place.

 

[kiyardo]

So Kiyardo, although I contradict myself at times- just what should our gov. do for us? I thought at the very least, it was to supply first rate infrastrucutre- but apparently we are very much behind the times- and need billions upon billions to catch up.

The Government should so only what is mandated in the Constitution. Things like funding the arts, education just aren't in there. The Government provides for the common defense and you're right about infrastructure. It is behind and needs to be modernised. bush promoted this over two years ago.

Why should children be forced to go to private schools? How come the Europeans and Japanese can put out first rate students, through their public education system?

Children shouldn't be forced to go to private schools. I never said they should. The choice should be easier, though if they want to go. The Japanese, at least, are more resourceful than Americans in many things they do. Education being one of them. It's not about money.

I can understand why you think more funding is just a waste- and I somewhat agree, the school districts etc. need to be totally reformed- they are piss poor, and do anything but encourage learning. Another problem is the teaching, I dont know about you, but I had dreadful teachers in public school- I suppose I am tooting my own horn, but I was smarter than most of teachers I had after 5th grade, most of my class was smarter than the teachers we had. I dont know how many young mothers that didnt have a clue about anything other than being grouchy, I had in public schools. I understand that in Europe and Japan, being even a public school teacher is both a well paying job, and a hard one to get- maybe this should be the case here.

You are absolutly right. You hit the nail on the head. One step in providing a quality education is local control of the school system where accountability and access are greater. Leave education up to the states and local governments only.

I still fail to understand your stand on the arts- Its conservatism gone wacky- you do realize that every great country etc. in history, has been considered great because of its usually state funded artistic and cultural acheivements. I mean Michelangelo, Leonardo, Raphael were supported by different states- and we are better for it. Hell the soviets even supported Prokofiev, Shostakovich. WHy shouldnt we support great art?- it doesnt cost much- and it makes the world a much better place.

It's a fundemental difference of the purpose of government. I, for one, respect artists creativity out of their own merit as opposed to government sanctioned creations or art. Look at some of the great American painters like Grant Wood, Thomas Eakins, and Winslow Homer.
They didn't need federal funding to be creative and artistic. Again, I'm not opposed to the funding of a few museums, but other than that. I don't think the government has a place in the arts.

 

[speed]

First Kiyardo, let me say thank you for providing an intelligent discussion. I was a little rash with the barbarian comment, I ask for your forgiveness.

I see you are very much a true Goldwater conservative- or at least wish to be- yet I think it is clear you need to study things a bit more- as one cannot believe the garbage of either republicans or democrats.

You did stretch my school district argument a bit and it is my fault I didnt clarify it, yes local school districts need more accountability- but I dont see how this can occur without some sort of federal mandate. One could argue state mandates etc. would work just as well, but, one forgets how many states have chosen to let their public school systems rot- states like ALabama( in which a 1.4 billion dollar republican sponsered bill for education failed miserably tuesday).

You seem to have same republican shortsidedness to devolve authority to the states and local gov.s. Yet the big problem with this republican idea, is that the States have not received any extra funding from the fed gov, to pay for all these formerly Federal sponsered programs. Moreover,every state but Vermont is bankrupt, and running a deficit right now. Also without much fed. money for education- college bills are increasing 15- 20 % every year now- as the states can no longer support their own universities, and pay for all the new security, and social programs the genius republicans have saddled them with. I know as, I have seen my college and grad school bills skyrocket- leaving me in alot of debt. One must also mention the same problem is happening with healthcare- states are having a very hard time meeting the incresed medical costs- yeterday the fed. gov said it was a 14% increase for healthcare last year.

Another problem, is the fact that state tax bases are crumbling. Manufacturing jobs are dissappearing at a startling rate since bush got into office- almost 4 million are gone since he astarted( average 54,000 a year jobs). High Tech jobs are now starting to go to China, India,, and Russia- even silicon valley is hurting these days. States also have to give startling tax breaks to any large corporation to keep them in their state.

Finally, as for art, the few artists you have mentioned are hardly great artists. I wouldnt say we have had a great American painter- maybe abstract painters such as Warhol. We have had a few decent composers, Copland, Bernstein- im forgetting one- and all these composers make money off of Art funds, and symphony endowments which are partially supported by the gov to stay afloat. I fail to see why a few hundred million dollars to art, is a big deal? Even if it is contrary to the constitution, so is bribing companies with tax refunds to stay in America- and I mean if you look at history, we have been running this country ( and bush is a huge offender here) contrary to the given constituitional powers since really Thomas Jefferson- Chief Justice John Marshall very early gave the judicial and legislative bodies broad powers to do what they want even if it wasnt covered in the COnstitution. I cant remember the case( ill look it up I was unfortunately a Law student for a year).

I look forward to your reply.

 

[speed]

Sorry, I forgot to address the infrastructure part of our discussion.

You say Bush has supported fixing our Energy problem. Yet, I just read there is a fed investigation against Bush's Whitehouse- especially Cheney for the abnormally high Gas Prices- why he didnt use any of the fed reserves last month is a big question. One could argue, quite easily, that Bush and Cheney stand to profit from high oil prices- as it is no secret both have heavy investment in the oil industry.

Also, but correct me if I m wrong, wasnt Bush in support of Enron, and the resulting California blackouts? I know Bush has relaxed in the last few years many of the fed restrictions and forced upgrades on utilities.

Lastly, I say this all as a true independent- I have no political ideology- in fact I usually vote for an obscure third party candidate. I figure Lyndon Larouche is a good choice- just becuase he alredy is a convicted felon. haha.

Honestly, I just find that Bush is running our country into the ground- CLinton didnt do a very good job at all either- and in fact started alot of the devolution of Fed powers- but Bush is just so blatantly pandering to his own intrests, and big corporations, that is quite sick. I read yesterday that with our current spending we will be a trillions of dollars in debt in ten years. Never has a president( and this is coming from the Dean of the JFK school at Harvard) cut taxes, increased fed. spending, and started a expensive war at the same time. In a few years the gov will have a hard time paying off the interest on the debt- much less do anything else. Also I read that Reagans Treasury chief stated that Trickle down economics is a lie- and they knew it didnt work- so I fail to see how this tax cut that disportionately helps the rich, will aid in any economic turn around. In fact I see more unemployment, and the stock marke falling- inmstead of the other way around.

 

[kiyardo]

Speed,
Thank you for an intelligent discussion! I don't have time to address every point in your posts, but I think one thing you've said concerning state budget problems really holds true:

"High Tech jobs are now starting to go to China, India,, and Russia- even silicon valley is hurting these days. States also have to give startling tax breaks to any large corporation to keep them in their state."

That's the key. Corporate tax breaks and across the board tax cuts as well as less intrusive government regulation are the only things the government can do help the economy. The rest is up to the private sector.

Our differences in the role of government are based on ideas. I think we both respect the Constitution, but interpret it differently. And, rather than going into a point by point debate with you this time, I'll just say that I certainly understand where your coming from as you've stated your case well.
I may not agree with it, but I respect it.

I don't like the debt either, which is why we need to cut spending on extra-constitutional government programs first, before we think of burdening the tax payers with a tax increase, especially the unfair taxes on the rich, who are essentially punished for success. Without the rich investing in jobs, you and I wouldn't have a job. Every worker in America works for someone who is rich.

BTW, did you hear the LaRouche protestors at the Democratic presidential debate on tuesday? Al Sharpton really let them have it.

 

[speed]

Yes, sorry, I was a little long winded.

Maybe we do approach these problems with different ideas- Yet I couldnt help noticing you have few real world examples in your posts with me- just statements and doctrines that you hold to be true. I do disagree on the Constitution, nothing should be taken literally- and it is merely a strong framework to guide us( and god how we have been led astray from democracy lately) Sort of like the BIble in a way( not that I am actually guided or have any belief in the BIble- some do)

It sounds as if you buy into Trickle Down Economics- it obviously doesnt work- and Ive stated why in my previous posts.

I am going to have to agree with you on corporate tax breaks, its a shame that its come down to the fed, and local gov.s bribing businesses to stay- and for multibilliondollar businesses to not pay much at all in taxes.

As for less gov. regulation- well, businesses need strict Environmental regulations, and they also need strict accounting regulations- I think we both have experienced the problems that arise when there is no regulation in these sectors. I aslo believe businesses should be subject to some kind of regulations regarding their former employess. Its a real shame how many retirees have seen their pensions, and health care disappear- especiallty when they werre promised so much when they retired. Yet, if one looks at Japan, one can see the problems overly generous retirement packages bring.

Well its a fucked up country, I think we both want it to improve- we obviously think differently on how to improve it. I'm just worried about our current direction, it seems we are declining fast- both in personal rights and democracy, and our once strong economy( i dont see what will energize the economy- there is no internet or computers etc. on the horizon like there was in the mid 90's).