G Clip / Limiting help...

[JayB]

Hey guys , finally getting to the end of the mixing stage for my first production. I am getting a lot of clipping indicators in Pro Tools , and I am pretty new to the whole clipping /G clip thing. I can't seem to find a good in depth tutorial for this anywhere so I figured I would throw a few questions toward you guys:

1) I use Pro Tools mainly . I also have Ableton Live Lite , which I use if I have to use a VST plug in , which I rarely do. I've seen in most instances G clip is used twice along with a limiter on tracks , but Ableton Lite only lets you use two plug ins. So my first question is , can I use g clip and a limiter , then export , import that file and use g clip once more? Or does it all need to be done at once?

2) Should G Clip be used on all tracks that are clipping? I have multiple guitar tracks that are clipping in certain spots. Is it customarily done on all tracks before final mixdown / master, in which case it is then also used on the final master?

Thanks in advance for your help guys. Everything else so far along the project as gone pretty smoothly, but for some reason this whole clipping business is total Greek to me. Goes right over my head.

 

[John_C]

Gclip is a clipper, it is useful if you want to clip things for effect or for transparent transient killing.

From what i can understand what you need is to turn your faders down until things STOP clipping


edit: clipping is when a signal is too loud for whatever it's passing through and the waveform gets the top and bottom just chopped off. I don't think pro tools will really clip on the tracks, irrelevant of red lights, but it may do on the busses and certainly will on the master bus

 

[cloy26]

When would you purposely clip a track? I know Joey said he uses Gclip to get his snare sound... Like, is it to add body without sticking out?

 

[JayB]

When would you purposely clip a track? I know Joey said he uses Gclip to get his snare sound... Like, is it to add body without sticking out?

Basically , especially on toms, kick and snare , it helps to clip the peaks so you can get overall more track volume in mastering , without clipping. So I guess G Clip should only be used on drums , or other things with quick transients? I could've sworn I saw a tutorial video where someone used it on guitar and vox, but maybe that dude didn't know what he was doing.

 

[JayB]

This is the only video I could find where someone is using g clip. I actually am kinda more confused now. Are you supposed to use G clip to even a singular track's dynamics (like snare only) BEFORE mastering , or do you just throw it on the final mix with a shitload of peaks to even it out then?

 

[grywolf627]

To quote Slate from the "Getting Your Loudness" thread (which I'm not going to bother looking up):

Clipping works because it actually affects your balances very little, unlike Limiting which affects them a LOT. If you do it with a mix that has a good frequency balance (like make sure you don't have +8 at 60Hz!) you can push a mix pretty hard and get -9db RMS without many artifacts. If I had to do it the plugin way, I would:

Eq the mix with a nice eq, leveling the lows and midrange so they aren't overbearing, and maybe perk up the 1-2k area, and the ultra highs if the song needs more air. Keep in mind, your mix might not need ANY EQ.

Then you may want to level the dynamics with a plugin compressor. The idea is to use a compressor with as little sonic imprint as possible, if you want sonic imprint, do it with your mix compressor. As with eqing, the mix might already have enough compression, so use your ears.

Then, I would use TWO of the Gclips chained back to back, with the 2X oversampling ON, doing a few db with each. Finally, I'd use about 1db of Voxengo Elephant limiter on the "punchy" preset. If you have to use more then 1db, you're not using the clipper enough. This should make your masters -9db RMS on the loudest sections. If you dare go further then -9db RMS, its going to start sounding like ass. Most stuff today averages -9db.

...Are you supposed to use G clip to even a singular track's dynamics (like snare only) BEFORE mastering , or do you just throw it on the final mix with a shitload of peaks to even it out then?

Yes....and yes. You CAN use it on individual tracks, such as a snare...to help it stand out more without killing the transients. And you also use it while mastering (see above).

 

[JayB]

Wow Mark , that helped a lot ! Thanks a lot for the info man , much clearer to me now.

 

[Plankis]

Grywolfs took the quote from this thread if anyone wonders: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/278894-getting-your-loudness.html
It's a great read and everyone around here should've read it.

 

[JayB]

One more thing , about the frequency balance - how do you check this? Is there a plug in in Pro Tools that reads this? Also does Pro Tools have a decent RMS meter ?

 

[Plankis]

Don't know if protools has one but I can recommend http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/
Great free frequency analyser.

 

[waltz mastering]

One more thing , about the frequency balance - how do you check this?

Ears

Same with rms. If your relying a rms number and graphs to tell you how loud or balanced your track is or should be, your going about it wrong. Rms numbers are not accurate when it comes to perceived loudness.

Level Match.

 

[grywolf627]

Ears

Same with rms. If your relying a rms number and graphs to tell you how loud or balanced your track is or should be, your going about it wrong. Rms numbers are not accurate when it comes to perceived loudness.

Level Match.

This. Meters are good tools for double checking yourself...but good (developed) ears and a good room/listening environment are your primary tools.

 

[waltz mastering]

finally getting to the end of the mixing stage for my first production. I am getting a lot of clipping indicators in Pro Tools
<snip>
I've seen in most instances G clip is used twice along with a limiter on tracks

2) Should G Clip be used on all tracks that are clipping? I have multiple guitar tracks that are clipping in certain spots. Is it customarily done on all tracks before final mixdown / master, in which case it is then also used on the final master?

I'm not trying to under mind anything but, I don't get clipping or brick wall limiting in the mixing stage. I think the goal is to leave the transients intact at that point and shoot for conservative balanced levels.

By truncating your attacks your sort of shooting your self in the foot down the line.

Ime/o separately mastering a track that has conservative levels will result in a much better final sound than that of a track that's already been mangled.

Trying to get maximum level and punch with finesse and grace from something that's already saturated is sort of a no win situation. ymmv

 

[Harry Hughes]

I agree with the ears heart massively, but there is NOTHING wrong with clipping/limiting in the mix phase.
It's just one approach to mixing. Maybe it's not the way you do it Tom, but it works for others and they get great results.
Personally I'm of the opinion that really nailing down the elements of a mix with limiting to get rid of dynamics can really help to achieve great control in the mix phase, because the levels are just where you want them rather than bouncing all over the place.
From there you just automate dynamics back into the mix. It's an approach that seems be championed by Randy Staub for instance. You can tell he uses heavy compression/limiting for just total dynamic control, as well as plenty of automation once everything has been heavily limited/compressed, and listening to Black Gives Way to Blue, I think the results speak for themselves.

 

[JayB]

I'm of the opinion that really nailing down the elements of a mix with limiting to get rid of dynamics can really help to achieve great control in the mix phase, because the levels are just where you want them rather than bouncing all over the place.

Yeah , this is what I was talking about , I think it will just help me get max loudness easier later. Also I know ears are the first and best tool , and yes I use them , but I always like to double check because ears can be deceiving. Also when Slate says things like "make sure you don't have +8 at 60Hz!" I mean really how would you nail something like that down so specifically without a tool to help you.

 

[JayB]

Also I'm just curious , I see a lot of guys on here , including Joey and Slate , saying that they have their RMS levels at something very specific , around -9 RMS or so. How would they know exactly when it was at -9 without a tool?

 

[grywolf627]

I don't think (at least for my part) any one is saying to not use meters. But, for mastering...you also use your ears. Especially for the over all EQ of a mix, and the relative loudness from one track (song...not instrument track) to another when mastering a collection of songs. Of course you use meters. But they can't replace good ears too. For me...-9dB is just too hot. I don't like it. I usually shoot for -10 or -10.5dB at the loudest parts. But that's just me, and also depends on the body of work I'm working on, and that's highly subjective.

 

[abyssofdreams]

Just use those -9 RMS as a pointer, not a necessity.
It depends on the mix anyways, -12 RMS can sound ear fatiguing if you push too many highs and -9 RMS can sound dull and flat and not loud at all if the balance is whacky...

Your perception of loudness is not equivalent to high RMS values.

 

[JayB]

Gotcha... thanks for the help guys.

 

[arv_foh]

I'm not trying to under mind anything but, I don't get clipping or brick wall limiting in the mixing stage. I think the goal is to leave the transients intact at that point and shoot for conservative balanced levels.

By truncating your attacks your sort of shooting your self in the foot down the line.

Ime/o separately mastering a track that has conservative levels will result in a much better final sound than that of a track that's already been mangled.

Trying to get maximum level and punch with finesse and grace from something that's already saturated is sort of a no win situation. ymmv

Dude, I completely understand where you're coming from, but for whatever reason you're in the mindset that every dude on this board is shipping his mix out to an external mastering house, when really it's quite the opposite, probably 90% of the people on this board are interested in optimizing the loudness of their mix without the help of an external mastering house and "mastering" it themselves.

While the results may or may not be as good as sending it off somewhere to get it mastered, most of the bands that come to us (and by us I mean basement warriors, people who are running studios out of their houses, etc) do not have the extra $700-$1000 in the budget for a job done by a professional mastering engineer.

EDIT: I checked out your website and your mastering suite looks amazing.