This is why I find this debate silly: they're two pretty different bands. I don't even consider Venom as Black Metal.
Genre Anthems
- Thread starter Spiderchrist
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This is why I find this debate silly: they're two pretty different bands. I don't even consider Venom as Black Metal.
Yeah, and even if you're on the side that argues that Venom is early black metal (I'm not really sure where I sit myself) - doesn't mean they have to sound like Bathory.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
What does that matter? Most kinds of music can be disturbing if played right (definitely any kind of metal) and if you're gonna be covering the lyrical themes of Venom you should aim for a dark ambiance. If you don't, your music is just a shtick, which is fine if that's all you want. If you want an entertaining gimmick band that's kinda dark but that you can also get hammered with your bros and sing along while wrapping your arms around each other's shoulders then Venom's the band for you! But obviously that's not gonna be artistically or aesthetically on par with Bathory.
HamburgerBoy
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Uh, "exact same song"? They share a song title, they aren't the same song. "Radio rock" is no more descriptive than "mainstream"; is every metal band with some Motorhead influence in riffing now "radio rock"? Is Exodus now "radio rock" for featuring gang shouts/group chanting? The two songs aren't a fair comparison anyways since you picked one of two slower/"atmospheric" Bathory songs and one of the more upbeat Venom ones.
Not to mention that their guitar tone was incredibly filthy and raw as well.
Also, lol @ telling Venom what they should have done in 1981 when no other metal bands had even taken after dark/occult/Satanic lyrical themes like they did. Yeah, they obviously didn't take it too seriously. Neither did Quorthon when he went from adamantly denying any Venom influence to playing down his early records as him having listened to a bit too much Venom. I suppose that <insert overly serious Dungeons & Dragons power metal band here> is therefore more artistically valid than Judas Priest too for delivering immature fantasy lyrics with deadpan performance. ART!!!!1
Not to mention that their guitar tone was incredibly filthy and raw as well.
Also, lol @ telling Venom what they should have done in 1981 when no other metal bands had even taken after dark/occult/Satanic lyrical themes like they did. Yeah, they obviously didn't take it too seriously. Neither did Quorthon when he went from adamantly denying any Venom influence to playing down his early records as him having listened to a bit too much Venom. I suppose that <insert overly serious Dungeons & Dragons power metal band here> is therefore more artistically valid than Judas Priest too for delivering immature fantasy lyrics with deadpan performance. ART!!!!1
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Yelloweyedemon
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These forums should be renamed to Black metal forum. Every thread is about how awesome black metal is, and how power/glam/insertothergenrenamehere sucks.
Not sure about lyrical theme, but the first band that used satanic/occult symbols and pics, was the first band of Blackie lawless. (Sister)
Not sure about lyrical theme, but the first band that used satanic/occult symbols and pics, was the first band of Blackie lawless. (Sister)
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Radio rock is not an inherently bad or derogatory thing. It's just not very evil.
It's got a nice grit to it, but calling it "incredibly filthy and raw" is hyperbolic.
Fine. Then in that case their music is primarily entertainment. Nothing wrong with that for those that find it entertaining. But don't try and pass it off as superior to a more artistically pure rendition of the same formula.
And the Judas Priest comparison doesn't work. Judas Priest can make up for a lot with the fact that they are phenomenal musicians and have arguably the greatest singer in the history of metal. And beyond that, at times Priest do a killer job of bringing their fantasy lyrics to life (especially on the earlier records).
HamburgerBoy
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You still haven't explained what "radio rock" is. When I think of "radio rock" in the early 80's, the first things that come to mind are Blackout/Love at First Sting-era Scorpions and Golden Earring's Twilight Zone, and that would be at the heaviest/hardest edge of the rock hits of that era. It's not hyperbolic at all to say that Venom pushed boundaries in metal music, especially aesthetically which seems to be something you value highly.
I still don't see what seriousness has to do with artistic purity (let alone musical proficiency), nor how Quorthon was any more pure in his motives. Especially since on could just as easily argue that Venom's music was a violent reanimation of mankind's inner primal urges with the end goal of destroying every po-faced goth and reinstatement of... ok I speak poor ANUSese but you get the point.
I still don't see what seriousness has to do with artistic purity (let alone musical proficiency), nor how Quorthon was any more pure in his motives. Especially since on could just as easily argue that Venom's music was a violent reanimation of mankind's inner primal urges with the end goal of destroying every po-faced goth and reinstatement of... ok I speak poor ANUSese but you get the point.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
I just mean typical rock tropes (like the ones I mentioned earlier) that at the time are commonplace in mainstream radio bands. I'm not saying everything about Venom is radio friendly or something--obviously that's not the case--but certainly enough elements to detract from the overall experience of a supposedly "evil" record.
I recognize that they pushed the genre aesthetically, but I also recognize that they only had one foot in the water and one on land, so to speak. The results are records that are not completely satisfying or aesthetically coherent (the crappy vocalist and hit-and-miss songwriting doesn't help).
I have no idea about motives- it's not like I met these guys. As an event Bathory's S/T is a far purer expression than either of the first two Venom records.
Genres don't come out of a vacuum. Progression has to exist. I suppose you think Quorthon could've "put both feet in the water" without Venom "putting a foot in first"?
Your criticisms of Venom make perfect sense in a world devoid of context.
You also seem to assume that all extreme metal must meet your desired aesthetic of evil. Different bands have different aims and Venom fucking EXCEL at what they do. In fact, pretty much no one plays Venom better than Venom, while the primitive evil of the Bathory debut would be matched a few times in the future.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
You're conflating historical significance and intrinsic worth. I'm not denying the historical significance of Venom as a catalyst for more worthwhile artists. I am denying the idea that their records are intrinsically worthwhile.
I have no idea how you jumped to that conclusion. All I'm saying is a band with evil lyrical themes should probably sound evil. I guess you could make the case that they meant it tongue in cheek so it doesn't need to sound evil, but in that case I would point out that Venom does a mediocre job of coloring their music with wit or sarcasm.
I don't really see what Venom excel at, other than sounding like a lo-fi Motörhead knockoff with bad vocals and Satanic lyrics, but if you think that there's something that makes Venom oh so special I'd love to hear what it is.
HamburgerBoy
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Quorthon was not being serious either. If you hear simplistic lo-fi Venom knockoffs with bad goblin vocals and Satanic lyrics and think "Holy shit this is the genuinely evil as fuck!", you're just another sucker deluded by the sham of Bathory.
And "could make the case"? Just read the lyrics to Black Metal, fuck. They're obviously tongue-in-cheek, but that doesn't change or diminish their message.
And nothing special at all? Witching Hour and other early songs were basically the beginnings of thrash metal and provided a starting point for all the early thrash bands to build on, for one.
EDIT: I mean, do you find Motorhead themselves artistically valid or whatever?
And "could make the case"? Just read the lyrics to Black Metal, fuck. They're obviously tongue-in-cheek, but that doesn't change or diminish their message.
And nothing special at all? Witching Hour and other early songs were basically the beginnings of thrash metal and provided a starting point for all the early thrash bands to build on, for one.
EDIT: I mean, do you find Motorhead themselves artistically valid or whatever?
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
So whether or not one expresses themselves in a serious or a tongue-in-cheek manner doesn't change or diminish the message? Right. That makes a lot of sense...
Again, you're referencing historical impact. I have no disagreement with you regarding their influence, so I'm not sure why you and Lat keep bringing it up. I'm talking about intrinsic worth, which Venom doesn't really have. It's just dated, mediocre music with bad vocals.
Not really, but considering their lyrical themes and music style they don't have to be to achieve their goals.
Master_Yoda77
Juggalo
I don't give a shit about this retarded argument, so let me put this out there. Bathory>Venom because Bathory is better than Venom. Der. Disagree? Wrong, cunt. Go listening to The Return and listen to Black Metal and tell me differently. Then listen to Under the Sign and whatever else Venom has in their discography.
I saw Venom live. Fucking Cronos refused to shake my hand when I met him cause he's a metal rockstar and shit. What a fucking faggot. Like, all I wanted to do was shake his hand and be like "yo, dude, thanks for creating black metal and being a cool dude" then I try and shake his hand and he just puts his limp hand, like I should I kiss it or something. His bandmates shook my hand because they were cool. I couldn't even get a pic with them. We could only take pic OF them. Like, who the fuck wants to take a pic of Cronos? Who the FUCK does this faggot think he is that people are only worthy of shaking his stupid pathetic limp wristed hand-shaked and NOT get a pic with him? OH WAIT! You can snag a pic OF him. Fuck you Cronos. Venom sucked major cock live at MDF and I fucking hate you.
Sincerely,
Michael S. Schmidt
A less faggot than you
Faggot Edit-> I love Venom still. Welcome to Hell shits on nearly everything you listen to right now. Go back that shit and we can still be friends. Also, Fuck Cunts.
I saw Venom live. Fucking Cronos refused to shake my hand when I met him cause he's a metal rockstar and shit. What a fucking faggot. Like, all I wanted to do was shake his hand and be like "yo, dude, thanks for creating black metal and being a cool dude" then I try and shake his hand and he just puts his limp hand, like I should I kiss it or something. His bandmates shook my hand because they were cool. I couldn't even get a pic with them. We could only take pic OF them. Like, who the fuck wants to take a pic of Cronos? Who the FUCK does this faggot think he is that people are only worthy of shaking his stupid pathetic limp wristed hand-shaked and NOT get a pic with him? OH WAIT! You can snag a pic OF him. Fuck you Cronos. Venom sucked major cock live at MDF and I fucking hate you.
Sincerely,
Michael S. Schmidt
A less faggot than you
Faggot Edit-> I love Venom still. Welcome to Hell shits on nearly everything you listen to right now. Go back that shit and we can still be friends. Also, Fuck Cunts.
HamburgerBoy
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What does the seriousness of expression have to do with a given message itself? Not every band with Satanic themes needs to be Deathspell Omega.
I'd consider the songs found on said albums of influence to provide intrinsic worth to the album. "Bad vocals" is quickly becoming your trademark, btw.
EDIT: re: crimsonfloyd
I'd consider the songs found on said albums of influence to provide intrinsic worth to the album. "Bad vocals" is quickly becoming your trademark, btw.
EDIT: re: crimsonfloyd
Thrash Metal - Toxic Waltz (Exodus)
Doom - Soul Sacrifice (Cathedral)
Death Metal - Corporeal Jigsore Quandary (Carcass)
Folk Metal - Thinking Allowed (Skyclad)
Grunge - We Die Young (Alice in Chains)
Doom - Soul Sacrifice (Cathedral)
Death Metal - Corporeal Jigsore Quandary (Carcass)
Folk Metal - Thinking Allowed (Skyclad)
Grunge - We Die Young (Alice in Chains)
Master_Yoda77
Juggalo
Also, I don't care about that argument but DSO kinda fucking sucks so yeah, keep my inferior opinion in mind.
+2 for Alice in Chains BTW <3
+2 for Alice in Chains BTW <3
HamburgerBoy
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I only mentioned them because they're so orthodox and serious and artistic and shit.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
A serious message should have a serious expression and a more playful, light or sarcastic message should have an equivocal expression. From there you evaluate how well the artist achieved that expression. Simple enough, right?
Cool, if you feel that way enjoy it.
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