smy1
Member
Can you give me 3 very specific questions to answer? Otherwise I have to write a book
Gigging: Any point these days?
- Thread starter drew_drummer
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Can you give me 3 very specific questions to answer? Otherwise I have to write a book
CubanDude
not really cuban
- Nov 17, 2010
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Can you give me 3 very specific questions to answer? Otherwise I have to write a book
Then write it, I'm your first buyer :Spin: Okay, let's see... What are your top3 jobs you have to take care of with your label? How much of an investment is starting a label (I'm from Germany too, so I guess it's a registered business?)? How much time does it take / week? Thanks in advance!
smy1
Member
if6was9: well put! A lot of bands don't realize that the reason they don't attract fans is that they are actually crap live or on CD or both.
Gra Värid: if you only play shows for fun, you'll never make a profit I generally agree with you but you have to keep the profit side in mind too!
On the topic of instrumental music: I might be out of touch with that particular niche-scene, but what's important is that you still choose your audience wisely. People in general like vocals and if an instrumental band associates mainly with vocal-bands they'll have a hard time.
Just so that you guys understand where I'm coming from when I criticize other bands: I'm extremely critical of myself/my project and I strive to do the very best I can at the highest possible level that I can. In many cases I don't achieve that or am able to afford that and I'm usually aware of all the shortcomings that I have, but I prefer to produce/release/play than sit in my studio for 5 years trying to reach an impossible state of "perfection". One of the worst shows of the year 2012 for me was this one:
7000 people and half the place clapping along, but we had so many technical problems that my performance was maximum 50% of what it could have been. Which means while we played in front of 7000 people, we only convinced half of them and not as many as possible! That generally didn't happen at other shows last year which is why this one was disappointing on our side.
Maybe if you understand that mindset, you'll understand why I can find so many faults with most bands that are around.
Gra Värid: if you only play shows for fun, you'll never make a profit
I generally agree with you but you have to keep the profit side in mind too!On the topic of instrumental music: I might be out of touch with that particular niche-scene, but what's important is that you still choose your audience wisely. People in general like vocals and if an instrumental band associates mainly with vocal-bands they'll have a hard time.
Just so that you guys understand where I'm coming from when I criticize other bands: I'm extremely critical of myself/my project and I strive to do the very best I can at the highest possible level that I can. In many cases I don't achieve that or am able to afford that and I'm usually aware of all the shortcomings that I have, but I prefer to produce/release/play than sit in my studio for 5 years trying to reach an impossible state of "perfection". One of the worst shows of the year 2012 for me was this one:
7000 people and half the place clapping along, but we had so many technical problems that my performance was maximum 50% of what it could have been. Which means while we played in front of 7000 people, we only convinced half of them and not as many as possible! That generally didn't happen at other shows last year which is why this one was disappointing on our side.
Maybe if you understand that mindset, you'll understand why I can find so many faults with most bands that are around.
Interesting topic. But I'm afraid the next one will be "Making music - any point these days?"
I do a lot of stuff. I am a musician, I run a small festival, I write online & print ... and non of it seems to make that much sense nowadays, because the most important thing is missing: People who still care enough about music to pay for it.
In fact the musician himself is the one who pays most for it these days. Amongst other things that's the main reason why pay-2-play could become that popular.
I do a lot of stuff. I am a musician, I run a small festival, I write online & print ... and non of it seems to make that much sense nowadays, because the most important thing is missing: People who still care enough about music to pay for it.
In fact the musician himself is the one who pays most for it these days. Amongst other things that's the main reason why pay-2-play could become that popular.
smy1
Member
Martin Atkins will come out with Band:Smart soon. That's 800 pages of pure knowledge. His other books are great too, so get them all, really.
Regarding your questions:
1) The label side of things is mainly dealing with manufacturing/distribution and press aka: working with the pressing plant, coordinating dates with the distribution company (we tried going without one at first but it's better to have physical distro), writing up the release blurbs, contacting magazines about features and ad-buys, paying the bills immediately, budgeting realistically and handling the finances in a way that you know how much money you have available. I am a professional photographer (http://www.samiyahya.net) so I do all my visuals/graphics myself which means I'm also doing all the packaging/posters/flyers/shirts myself. I outsource webcoding cause I hate it and I'll soon outsource shirtdesign cause I'm constantly dissatisfied with my shirts although they sell okay.
2) Starting a label requires no investment at all other than what making a CD costs. My breakdown for the upcoming one is like this:
Mastering: 400€
Pressing (2000 CDs): 1800€ (for Germans: www.hofa-media.de are AMAZING!)
Music Video: 500€ (I can shoot it myself and want to keep it cheap on this release, last year this was budgeted at 5000€ for 3 music videos and 3 panoramic images: http://www.theworldoffaderhead.com)
Ad-Buys: 1500€
Photos: 0€ my assistant can take them after I did the main setup but you can find great photographers on the web for 300€ per half day shoot (1-2 final images)
Tunecore Distro: 50€
So if you factor in the photos it's only 4500€ (which means I'll break even after 820 CD sales at a net gain of 5,50€ - without counting the mp3 sales income). If you want to go cheap you can go with 200/1000/300/0/300 so you end up with 1800€. Divided by 4 bandmembers that's only a month of on-the-side work for each person.
Against common misconception: you don't need to be a member of IFPI or other organizations and you don't need a labelcode (unless you plan to chart on the radio with your first release). We've always been using a friend's labelcode and nobody ever gave a shit.
3) It takes as much time as it takes. Since I also do my own booking the lines are very blurry. I don't work much in my dayjob so I have a lot of time to do all these things. In the beginning it's a lot of work because you don't know any of the stuff and you don't know any of the people and you constantly have to spend more time/money to get less than other bands/labels but that's because they've been in contact with the dealers/mags/promoters for decades while you are new. It gets better over time and much easier.
If you want to do it well, I'd say 20-30h a week for one band.
Hope this helps.
This has been a good thread, and has been fairly useful in some respects. For my own situation, I agree that the band name can be restrictive, but I like it, and to me it suits our music. I don't agree that instrumental music is dead - it's a smaller niche, but it is still really damn popular.
Not a single review we've ever had has said we needed more vocals. Almost every single reviewer has heaped praise on the production, and cannot believe it was all self-produced. We are constantly inundated with requests to play shows. The problem here is our fanbase is so widely spread around the world that we can't realistically go to these places to play.
I listened to some of your music over the last two days Sami. Not being funny, but your kind of music is really popular at the moment. I work in music software, we make synths and effect plugins and what not. That whole heavily saturated club music vibe you've got going on - it's a dime a dozen these days, and works really well at festivals and outdoor gigs where people are heavily intoxicated and are there to just have a good time. I'm not really convinced you have a proper perspective of what it is like for the rest of us who don't have 808 and 909 four-to-the-floor kick drums for people to dance along to.
At the same time, it isn't the kind of music that people take away with them - they don't really get emotionally affected by it, not in my experience anyway. It's the experience of where you heard it that matters to those people, not the music itself. Which is pretty much the antithesis of how I approach music, and so is probably a large part of why we disagree so much.
There are loads of artists using the exact same sounds you're using - 7Skies, Skrillex, BT, amongst others. You may say, well if that's what sells then do it - but no. I don't want to do that, and I don't want to throw dubstep wobbles in the middle of a track just to appeal to a crowd of drunks and pill poppers. That just isn't my style.
Now that's just me. I'm not saying you or anyone should think the same as I. Personally I don't dig your music; it sounds like a less aggressive version of Skinny Puppy blended with Orbital, NiN, and Meat Beat Manifesto influences, and I got all I needed from that when I was 15/16. But I think you should be happy that you've had the success you've had.
I don't say this to be mean or insulting, honestly I don't. I'm just giving you the same on-the-level critique that you gave me. I think your approach has worked for you, but it wont work for everyone, and timing matters greatly with stuff like this too.
Anyway, I'm blathering on a bit now. I guess what made me start this thread is that I haven't played a really good gig in a while, and I'm starting to get withdrawal symptoms!
Not a single review we've ever had has said we needed more vocals. Almost every single reviewer has heaped praise on the production, and cannot believe it was all self-produced. We are constantly inundated with requests to play shows. The problem here is our fanbase is so widely spread around the world that we can't realistically go to these places to play.
I listened to some of your music over the last two days Sami. Not being funny, but your kind of music is really popular at the moment. I work in music software, we make synths and effect plugins and what not. That whole heavily saturated club music vibe you've got going on - it's a dime a dozen these days, and works really well at festivals and outdoor gigs where people are heavily intoxicated and are there to just have a good time. I'm not really convinced you have a proper perspective of what it is like for the rest of us who don't have 808 and 909 four-to-the-floor kick drums for people to dance along to.
At the same time, it isn't the kind of music that people take away with them - they don't really get emotionally affected by it, not in my experience anyway. It's the experience of where you heard it that matters to those people, not the music itself. Which is pretty much the antithesis of how I approach music, and so is probably a large part of why we disagree so much.
There are loads of artists using the exact same sounds you're using - 7Skies, Skrillex, BT, amongst others. You may say, well if that's what sells then do it - but no. I don't want to do that, and I don't want to throw dubstep wobbles in the middle of a track just to appeal to a crowd of drunks and pill poppers. That just isn't my style.
Now that's just me. I'm not saying you or anyone should think the same as I. Personally I don't dig your music; it sounds like a less aggressive version of Skinny Puppy blended with Orbital, NiN, and Meat Beat Manifesto influences, and I got all I needed from that when I was 15/16. But I think you should be happy that you've had the success you've had.
I don't say this to be mean or insulting, honestly I don't. I'm just giving you the same on-the-level critique that you gave me. I think your approach has worked for you, but it wont work for everyone, and timing matters greatly with stuff like this too.
Anyway, I'm blathering on a bit now. I guess what made me start this thread is that I haven't played a really good gig in a while, and I'm starting to get withdrawal symptoms!
smy1
Member
No offense taken at all. One thing you really learn quickly when you become "popular" in your niche of music is that 90% of people hate your stuff. The first year was tough on me, but I've completely stopped being personally/emotionally affected by other people's opinions on my music (unless I asked them about something specific). Also, I'm German, we don't feel insulted easily
On the other hand: I fully agree with you on your view of my dancey music. It's dance music after all and not meant to be deep or make people think. My full CDs are generally a very varied affair though, including piano ballads, acoustic songs and even full orchestral tracks. It's actually one of the main things that gave me a bigger fanbase than comparable artist who started in the last 5-6 years and who make an album of 14 tracks that all sound the same. My mid-term (5 year) plan is actually to phase out the dancey stuff and bring out the poppier/quieter tracks. Mainly because I am getting older (and my audience too) and while I enjoy dance music, I don't want to do it for the rest of my life. I'm kinda thinking of something like an electronic version of Johnny Cash and I'd like to do this till I'm old, so right now this is the start-phase. Don't know if it will work, but you'll never know until you try
I also did play in rock/metal bands for about 10 years, so I know the "other side" too. Electro was just a coincidence for me. Did I get lucky sometimes? Probably. Did I make stupid mistakes? Many.
When you say that my approach worked for me and not necessarily for others, then you are definitely right. Aside from the "no instrumental music" all of my criticisms/suggestions are just basics though (not band specific strategies) and bands that don't have all their chips in place will suffer in comparison to others who do. Even the most introspective artist needs an image, a good online presence and a live show that goes along with it. If not, he's not using his full potential - especially in times when everyone has ADD, nobody cares about anything and people only pay attention to "extra special". I guess it's up to each person to decide if that's "their thing" but it doesn't change the existing reality.
smy1
Member
I have the same thing. I get about 1-2 requests per day from all over the world to come and play there. But I often don't go because my fanbase is too small. And I'm doing a 2-3 man electro set, which means I have barely any travel costs and people can just show up even if they are just casual fans of 1 clubtrack. If you or I were Metallica or Deadmau5 and have a shitload of fans, we could go.
Don't think that you have a sizeable fanbase unless it's really large enough to allow you to tour there. It's very easy to click "Like" on FB and send a oneliner saying "Come to Witchita!", but very often these people don't even show up when you actually play that city. We played to 40 people in Nashville last year or to 15 in Baton Rouge in 2011. Both were fun gigs, but I'm not kidding myself into believing that Nashville is a good market for me (mainly due to promotion in the wrong scene/niche - if I was marketing myself in mainstream electro, it might well be, but I currently don't have the money/right connections). Those shows will always be there for touring bands when you are at the lower-middle level because you need to play on shitty days like Monday in cities that are along the way to the next better gig.
MarcusGHedwig
Member
CubanDude
not really cuban
- Nov 17, 2010
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Thanks Samy, great information and totally agree with Marcus, one of the best threads in a long time. I always back off from the thought of having my own label because I actually have not much of an idea what it is all about. Will defo look into that book, so also thanks for that. Just one more question: Why do you have a label for your own band / music? I mean having a label totally makes sense if you're dealing with several bands, but couldn't you just manage all that stuff (distro, promo) by yourself without having a real label or is it because you've got to have a label to be credible for event managers and stuff? Or is it because you wanna seperate music and business?
Partly the separation, but I think it's also because if you put 'Ltd' at the end of your contact name/address, you're taken more seriously. So if you email a festival or whoever with just your name and say you're a band member, you're automatically a pleb and not worthy of response. If you've got your own company, you're a representative for the band and a prospective advertising stream for the festival.
miguelrx10d
Axe Addicted
smy1
Member
Yea, you could do it all under the band name. It just looks better to the outside world (promoters/press/distro/etc), especially in the beginning of a business relationship. I also release the odd album/track by friends to keep the label look, but yea, it gets less and less important. Physical distributors rarely take on single bands because of the way their system with new releases and album returns work.
Hey Sami, could you expand on this? Sounds like it could be useful pragmatic information - how exactly do their systems and returns work?
smy1
Member
drew: Sure, it works like this:
a) Release date is March 1
b) Distro will offer the release to retailers big and small (from MediaMarkt to single stores to mailorders to Amazon) from February 1st
c) retailers will order based on past sales or marketing efforts or because the distro has a lot of weight
d) let's assume they ship out 1000 CDs in the first month and your label account gets credited for 1000 CDs sold
e) on April 1 you only get paid for 700 CDs because they keep 30% as a "return reserve". 30% is high, I chose that for myself because I don't like surprises.
f) albums can be returned until 3 months after they were ordered so this reserve gets paid out after 3 months for the first month and then every month. So it's a 3 month delay and what can happen is that in later months your album sells less than the amount of returns you get because a lot of albums only sell in the initial 3 month-release-phase
g) if you sell less albums than are being returned, your account goes into "debt" - and that often poses a financial as well as an accounting problem (mainly when you are not dealing with a few CDs but a larger quantity).
That's what distros want to avoid and it's easily avoided by staying away from single bands and working with labels who generally have a few releases per year, so they'll always have sales and money coming in - and the returns don't get higher than the sales.
Also: more single business partners means more accounting, more separate shipping, more work, more cost for all involved. That's why I have to do all my mailorder sales with Audioglobe (Italian distro who serves a lot of indie-stores around the world from South America to Japan) via a German intermediary. I sell my CDs to a German mailorder who then packages and resells them to Audioglobe cause Audioglobe doesn't want to bother with my few CDs a year. So they do the accounting in bulk with the intermediary. I lose about 2€ per CD to that intermediary, but I gain a nice chunk of money by selling through Audioglobe (who alone sell more than I need to break even on pressing the CDs).
With my main distro I got "lucky" by chosing a small distribution company who saw that I release 1-2 CDs a year and that they all sell out. On the first release it worked very well for all involved, the 2nd release only came out in late November (and it's a compilation) so we'll have to see how that goes, but since my new album is due in March, I don't see any problems at all.
a) Release date is March 1
b) Distro will offer the release to retailers big and small (from MediaMarkt to single stores to mailorders to Amazon) from February 1st
c) retailers will order based on past sales or marketing efforts or because the distro has a lot of weight
d) let's assume they ship out 1000 CDs in the first month and your label account gets credited for 1000 CDs sold
e) on April 1 you only get paid for 700 CDs because they keep 30% as a "return reserve". 30% is high, I chose that for myself because I don't like surprises.
f) albums can be returned until 3 months after they were ordered so this reserve gets paid out after 3 months for the first month and then every month. So it's a 3 month delay and what can happen is that in later months your album sells less than the amount of returns you get because a lot of albums only sell in the initial 3 month-release-phase
g) if you sell less albums than are being returned, your account goes into "debt" - and that often poses a financial as well as an accounting problem (mainly when you are not dealing with a few CDs but a larger quantity).
That's what distros want to avoid and it's easily avoided by staying away from single bands and working with labels who generally have a few releases per year, so they'll always have sales and money coming in - and the returns don't get higher than the sales.
Also: more single business partners means more accounting, more separate shipping, more work, more cost for all involved. That's why I have to do all my mailorder sales with Audioglobe (Italian distro who serves a lot of indie-stores around the world from South America to Japan) via a German intermediary. I sell my CDs to a German mailorder who then packages and resells them to Audioglobe cause Audioglobe doesn't want to bother with my few CDs a year. So they do the accounting in bulk with the intermediary. I lose about 2€ per CD to that intermediary, but I gain a nice chunk of money by selling through Audioglobe (who alone sell more than I need to break even on pressing the CDs).
With my main distro I got "lucky" by chosing a small distribution company who saw that I release 1-2 CDs a year and that they all sell out. On the first release it worked very well for all involved, the 2nd release only came out in late November (and it's a compilation) so we'll have to see how that goes, but since my new album is due in March, I don't see any problems at all.
smy1
Member
Btw, everyone - if you have trouble getting better gigs or getting replies from promoters or bookers, try making a video like this:
I update it every 3-6 months and occasionally send it to promoters that I have no previous connection with (as part of my initial email). Promoters love it and it's gained me some great spots at festivals. As you can see, it has only very few views because I don't need to use it often (and it's not publicly listed on YouTube), but the successful established promoters are all 40 years old or older and they don't hang in clubs or at gigs, so they only work with their established booking agency partners who basically offer them bands about 10-12 months in advance. They do know that there are young/hot acts but they don't know who they are or they can't judge it because they personally like music from 20 years ago when they were young. Which I understand! And even if you are with an established agency a video like this can help open some doors.
I update it every 3-6 months and occasionally send it to promoters that I have no previous connection with (as part of my initial email). Promoters love it and it's gained me some great spots at festivals. As you can see, it has only very few views because I don't need to use it often (and it's not publicly listed on YouTube), but the successful established promoters are all 40 years old or older and they don't hang in clubs or at gigs, so they only work with their established booking agency partners who basically offer them bands about 10-12 months in advance. They do know that there are young/hot acts but they don't know who they are or they can't judge it because they personally like music from 20 years ago when they were young. Which I understand! And even if you are with an established agency a video like this can help open some doors.
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CubanDude
not really cuban
- Nov 17, 2010
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This thread is pure gold. How do you actually present yourself to any business partners? I mean, do you call them and say "This is Samy from the label XY and I call on behalf of a client of mine, Faderhead, etc pp." or do you reveal that you're one and the same person (artist and label)?
