Good job christians in Oklahoma. =(

[Aaron Smith]

EH. If you were a woman that got raped and you had to look at a human byproduct of such a horrible experience that you had inflicted upon you practically every day for the rest of your life, you couldnt possibly see the potential for a bad emotional connection there?

Notice the bold type- that's where you're straying from my original intent. No pregnant woman (and not just a rape victim) should be, or is, forced to raise a child, so "had to" doesn't really reflect any real life situation. I was talking about a woman who, despite having to endure the trauma of a rape, sees the unborn fetus as a legitimate human life and thus willingly decides to birth it, and then even goes so far as to raise it. That is the only situation where a rape victim would be looking so the "human byproduct...practically every day for the rest of [her] life", and for a woman in that situation, I don't think there would be an absence of love between her and her child. I think for a woman to be raped, and to even just carry the child, is incredibly admirable, and raising it, even more so.

But to be clear, all I'm really trying to say, is that I think there's a naturally occurring mother-child bond that is present, even in the event of an ill-conceived, unwanted child...but if the woman wants to go so far as to raise the child, that's completely up to her.

Hope that clears it up.

STINNET asserted that the point on which people seem to diverge is the issue of potential, but I think the far more fundamental point of divergence, the absolute core of the debate (and I may be stating the obvious), is whether or not one believes that a fetus is a human being. I don't think he meant "potential to become a human", but rather "potential to live a reasonable life", but if I'm wrong, then I guess he was saying the same thing I just said

Anyway, I'm really trying to leave this thread alone, but it's hard when I get addressed personally.

I've always liked this Ronald Reagan quote though:

If you don't know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it. I think this consideration itself should be enough for all of us to insist on protecting the unborn.

 

[James Murphy]

that video pastor has never "met Jesus"... i know he doesn't mean literally, but for the sake of the exercise, let's suppose he went back in time and DID meet Jesus... in person (and during the trip he subliminally gained exceptional ancient middle-eastern language skills).

Jesus would have preached to him, in Aramaic, that the way to the kingdom... god's coming (and coming very soon... as in, within the lifetimes of most of the people he was preaching to) kingdom on earth (because that's where he and every other jew of the time thought it would be... on earth)... was to follow Jewish law.

repeated for clarity: Jesus preached that the way to the kingdom was to follow Jewish Law.

JEWISH LAW people.... NOT christianity.

Judaism was the religion OF Jesus...

Christianity is the religion ABOUT Jesus.

so everyone that today thinks they know what Jesus would say or want... you might think that over a bit.

anyway, abortion is never mentioned in the bible... just some obscure passages about how if men who are struggling accidentally "striketh" a pregnant woman and the baby in her miscarries then blah blah blah the woman's husband can demand such fine as the judges shall allow blah blah... but that if she is not otherwise injured, then that's it!!

it's in Exodus, and it's pretty clear: that causing the death of a fetus is not as serious a crime as causing the death of an already born, adult person... and since the woman being hit is just that... a woman... it's really her husband that was wronged... because, ya know, she's basically property of her husband, and not her own person at all. good 'ol biblical misogyny for ya right there.

no no, the "bible" is the LAST document that Christians should be looking to for guidance on abortion... or for anything else for that matter, unless they're really into the fine details of Bronze Age middle-eastern agriculture, and apocalyptic jewish ravings.

the most cogent point i can make is that the video preacher is a man, and a man with his mind already made up before he even speaks to any woman on the issue. And, he has never been raped. i don't care how many rape victims he's counseled... doesn't matter. they all came to him anyway, so they are already inculcated into the precepts he teaches and pretty much already know what he's going to say... which is going to be "have the baby", every time.

this type of thought always puts the unborn fetus over and above the mental and physical health of the living woman... UNLESS it's just telling her what she already wanted to hear.

years ago i got 2 girlfriends pregnant (not at the same time... one year apart). i applied no pressure in either case. i was supportive, and told both of them that i'd pay if they wanted an abortion, and also that i'd raise the child and be a good dad if they decided proceed with the pregnancy. they were both young, early twenties, and far from the extreme circumstances that some women find themselves in, but they had a choice... and it was theirs to make.

i regret their decisions sometimes... more and more as i get older to be honest... but i have never, and will never, regret the fact that they had a choice.

Amen.

 

[Morgan C]

years ago i got 2 girlfriends pregnant (not at the same time... one year apart). i applied no pressure in either case. i was supportive, and told both of them that i'd pay if they wanted an abortion, and also that i'd raise the child and be a good dad if they decided proceed with the pregnancy. they were both young, early twenties, and far from the extreme circumstances that some women find themselves in, but they had a choice... and it was theirs to make.

i regret their decisions sometimes... more and more as i get older to be honest... but i have never, and will never, regret the fact that they had a choice.

Amen.

Do you not feel that you have some say in the matter? I understand the woman has to carry and birth the baby, but imo it should be a mutual decision, not 'you decide and i'll run with it'.

Not to get offtopic, that's been managed without me ;p

 

[James Murphy]

Do you not feel that you have some say in the matter? I understand the woman has to carry and birth the baby, but imo it should be a mutual decision, not 'you decide and i'll run with it'.

Not to get offtopic, that's been managed without me ;p

and how would that work in practicality? exactly how do you think that my will would have been able to enforce or influence any change if their minds were made up? i expressed that i was ready if they were, but that i wouldn't judge them if they weren't, and would support their decision either way.

THAT is a do-able strategy.... your suggestion amounts to trying to talk another person into your position, and can leave an inference that you'll disapprove of them if they decide otherwise, whether you say that out loud or not. it becomes then, a very loaded proposition. not a healthy way forward for a relationship, or a vulnerable person's mental state.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Jesus would have preached to him, in Aramaic, that the way to the kingdom.... god's coming (and very soon... as in, within the lifetimes of most of the people he was preaching to) kingdom on earth (because that's where he and every other jew of the time thought it would be... on earth)... was to follow Jewish law.

JEWISH LAW people.... NOT christianity.

Judaism was the religion OF Jesus...

Christianity is the religion ABOUT Jesus.

so everyone that today thinks they know what Jesus would say or want.... you might think that over a bit.

Hahaha, religion thread reincarnated! uke:

You seem to be onto a nice little stab of straightforward thinking and sound theology, but it really isn't.

The Old Testament is filled with prophets who all speak of a coming Messiah, Immanuel (literally meaning "God with us"), who would deliver Israel; this was an event that the Jews were in anticipation of, and became progressively more aware of throughout the Old Testament . Those who believed that Jesus was the Messiah were the first Christians...and that the life and work of Jesus represented the ushering in of a new covenant between God and not just Isreal, but for all people, which one might say was "activated" upon Jesus' death.

So...to say that anyone who worships Jesus is mistaken in doing so, because Jesus just wanted people to be Jews, is not correct at all. Jesus just simply did not say that the way to the kingdom was through Jewish law, he rather said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:16).

"Jesus: Interrupted" got that one wrong, James

 

[James Murphy]

no, Jesus was a jew... and "activating a new covenant" didn't mean shit to him... IF he even existed.

no, "John" is by faaar the most fanciful of the canonical gospels. it has all kinds of "neato" stories about shit Jesus supposedly said and did that the 3 synoptic gospels do not, making it the least believable/trustworthy of the four books.

 

[drew_drummer]

Seriously... can we keep the bullshit biblical analysis out of this thread? It isn't relevant.

What is relevant is that at the end of the day; abortion should be legal everywhere. It is no worse than removing a cancer, tumour, or kidney stone.

Strikes me that this thread is bogus anyway; a bunch of men with ideas about women that they can't even confirm, because women are fucking crazy.

 

[James Murphy]

what are you talking about??? it's toally goddamned relevant (pun definitely intended)... the whole fucking law in Oklahoma was written and passed by Christians, relying exactly on their own biblical analysis to justify their actions.

it may not be the dialogue YOU want have about the issue, but that does NOT make it irrelevant, for fuck's sake.

 

[drew_drummer]

No. What is relevant is that those people are IDIOTS. The reason for their idiocy is not the bible. They were born without the correct genes to function in an age of reason.

 

[James Murphy]

on that last bit we can agree,

but, it's a "cause and effect" equation.

just not sure which is the cause and which is the effect..... and that begs a "chicken vs egg" style question:

which came first, religion or idiocy?

 

[drew_drummer]

I dunno man... I think if the Bible didn't exist, there would be some other thing that these people would latch onto and worship - they'd probably be newagers worshipping some tree in South America.

I think the real source of their lack of compassion and understanding is not down to a book, although yes, I can agree the book has some correlation.

 

[Aaron Smith]

Also James, you're correct in saying that the bible doesn't directly address the subject of abortion, but there is an abundance of relevant passages which clearly show that God sees the fetus in the womb as not just a cluster of meaningless cells, but a human life... So, it is very sufficiently clear that by biblical standards, abortion is wrong. I can post a long list of passages if you would like...

 

[James Murphy]

Also James, you're correct in saying that the bible doesn't directly address the subject of abortion, but there is an abundance of relevant passages which clearly show that God sees the fetus in the womb as not just a cluster of meaningless cells, but a human life... So, it is very sufficiently clear that by biblical standards, abortion is wrong. I can post a long list of passages if you would like...

and they'd all be as open to interpretation as anything else in the book.... so??

case and point: there is an abundance of relevant passages which clearly show that God sees genocide, misogyny, slavery, infanticide, animal sacrifice, and inherited guilt as just okie dokie... So, it is very sufficiently clear that by biblical standards, those things aren't wrong. I can post a long list of passages if you would like...

cherry-picking is fun, no?

 

[SocialNumb]

The notion that a rape victim who decides to raise her child will somehow have less love for that child than she otherwise would if the child had been properly conceived, is ridiculous. There are plenty of documented cases of women doing just that- raising and loving the child, but I have never heard of a woman keeping the baby, only to despise it and to be exposed to continuous emotional pain because of the existence of the child...it just doesn't work that way.

This is a fruitless discussion though, so I'm done.



Yeah yeah, keep bashing the guy, I know it's fun for you. He has a family with four children, literally pastors a real church (that I physically attend each week), and doesn't operate the YouTube channel himself...so as to why you feel so entitled to blame him directly for getting no responses, is beyond me.

Regardless of who operates the mhcseattle YouTube channel, and how kind your comments supposedly were...they realize that it's just as pointless for them to try to address your comments on YouTube, as it has been for me to address your comments here on the boards. It's pretty clear that any kind of religious discussion you might pursue would have absolutely nothing to do with your own personal humility or openness towards the subject, so stop fooling yourself into believing that endless arguing is somehow merited and that being prideful makes you worthy of their time.

Dude, you will do anything to dance around subjects to convince yourself that there is indeed a magical man in the sky that will take care of you when you're dead. You can't see past the rape issue because you're christian. I don't believe anyone said (correct me if I'm wrong) "a rape victim who decides to raise her child will have less love for that child". The issue here is the law in one state and the potential rape victim who DOES NOT want to keep the rapist's kid. To most you christians somehow conception is a magical gift from "God". So christians take it upon themselves to make it as hard as possible for a woman to exercise her right to do what she wants with her body.

You know for a "God" that's so powerful "he" sure has a lot of self made slaves working for him. You would think "he" could take care of it on his own.

As for the YT channel. You're right in that I don't know who operates the channel. Assumption on my part. Still, whoever does, doesn't like free speech unless it's someone praising him/her or "God". So fuck that person.

I could really not give less of a shit if he (your pastor) has family, so the fuck do I. I don't want his family telling my family what to do based on some sheep fuckers that wrote a bunch of nonsense on behalf of a killer "God" thousands of years ago.

And for the record, so it's very clear. My aim is to destroy religion entirely. I can't do it on my own and I realize not in my life but I can help build the framework for future generations. So they can be FREE.

 

[El_Gato]

@Aaron

For fucks sake!

This is a real case:

We got a couple. She has tuberculosis and he has syphilis. They had 4 children:

-First one born blind.
-2nd born dead.
-3rd born deaf and intelectually disabled.
-4th with tuberculosis.

Do you really think they should not interrupt the 5th pregnancy?

Go to a medical forum to see what they tell you. OR go to a female forum and see there is a majority of women supporting pregnancy interruption.

Then go to church and believe what they tell you.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

and they'd all be as open to interpretation as anything else in the book.... so??

case and point: there is an abundance of relevant passages which clearly show that God sees genocide, misogyny, slavery, infanticide, animal sacrifice, and inherited guilt as just okie dokie... So, it is very sufficiently clear that by biblical standards, those things aren't wrong. I can post a long list of passages if you would like...

cherry-picking is fun, no?

That's my Facebook quote of the day.

 

[GarethSE]

I am trying to stay clear of this topic but I felt the overwhelming need to quote this for truth.

And for the record, so it's very clear. My aim is to destroy religion entirely. I can't do it on my own and I realize not in my life but I can help build the framework for future generations. So they can be FREE.

Fucking a.

 

[coldthrn]

Have any of you seen the musical? Mandatory if you live here.

 

[Rogueleader]

I have trouble thinking that Christians are compassionate for wanting a fetus to live ("Its Murder!") when the vast majority of them also subscribe to the belief that after the rapture everyone not christian will suffer in hell for eternity. They seem to be fine with that pleasant little idea.

 

[CatharsisStudios]

1. someones religion does not make them stupid
2. who the fuck are you to cast such a judgement to be little people who have faith in what they want to believe in
3. if you claim your an athiest and that you hate when "christians always preach and press their relgion on me" stop trying to fucking bring up every fucking discrepency in the bible, your doing the same fucking shit,

fact: its cool to bash people for what they love and believe in, because you don't think thats "right"

stop bashing religion no matter how "wrong" you think it is keep it to your self, and yeah i am an athiest. its fucking annoying reading all of these threads and all they turn into is just pathetic little relgion wars