Guitarists- Will mic'ing a cab be a thing of the past?

[Metaltastic]

Wouldn't that just give way too many versions with mild variations at best?

I'd much rather he just focus on getting the very *best* chain possible and something more qualitative like the actual microphone positioning.

AGREED 100% - I HATE having too much selection.

 

[006]

although Revalver Mk III is pretty convincing, especially when used with Recabinet impulses.

Oh that was a good quick little sales line right there

Seriously though, Shane, you say Recabinet sounds good in RevMKIII? I'm going to be buying MKIII tomorrow and I was wondering how you felt about your impulses being used in it since I am interested in getting Recab myself.

Back on topic...like I said hardware amps and cabs will never disappear, there is just no way in hell that will ever happen. Just like the other analogies, the Solid State and Tube thing, the DFHS and real drummer thing...

However, for live use, you wouldn't need a laptop, per se. You could get ReValver MKIII loaded into a Muse Receptor and have the output of that going to the house's board, much like using a PODxt Live (as I did for a majority of my old band's shows). Rev in a 2U digital rack unit. Pretty simple. But as I learned with using the XTL, there is definitely something about having a cab or two on the stage. It's just better for monitoring IMO and it also has the aesthetic vibe that some people actually care about. I'm more into the sound so if somebody had a Receptor with MKIII going straight to the board as long as it sounded decent or good, even great then I could care less if there are cabs on the stage or not.

~006

 

[Temps]

For me, I want good alternatives to putting a mic on a cab. I'm one of these bedroom producers, and my cab is right behind me. Setting up the mic burns roughly an hour every time I want to record, and it is loud as hell, so I just get fatigued, can barely hear my backing track even with bigass cans, and so on. I'm saving up for an Axe FX right now so I can ditch my setup, and just save the space and run DI all the time.
This whole "not 3D" thing is bullshit. Guitars don't sound 3D, I've never heard a 3D mix. A "big" mix yeah but 3D? Fuck no. High gain guitars don't have "dynamics" like clean ones do. By their very nature, they are compressed to hell. As far as I can tell, the day I can get just as good of sound out of impulses as I can with a mic and cab has already arrived, and now all that is left to do is for people to adopt these new technologies.

 

[Kazrog]

Oh that was a good quick little sales line right there

Seriously though, Shane, you say Recabinet sounds good in RevMKIII? I'm going to be buying MKIII tomorrow and I was wondering how you felt about your impulses being used in it since I am interested in getting Recab myself.

Haha, I thought somebody might say that. So I fired up the Revalver Mk III demo for the first time in a couple of months, and I loaded in one of my beta impulses. At first I didn't like it, but then I realized that by default Revalver processes the impulses to add simulated speaker breakup, etc. - turn all those knobs down!

Then it sounds way more realistic. Finally the 6505+ model started to respond more like the real thing, and the XXX and JSX, and Peavey Classic models were awesome as well. I will say that they sound even better if you just use the preamp section, and not the power amp section, since the power amp is essentially predetermined with Recabinet. If you want the extra control over EQ that the poweramp section simulation normally gives you, just add some post EQ either between the preamp and the IR, or after everything.

I'm really not trying to push Recabinet at all when I say that it's legitamized Revalver Mk III for me. I was not expecting that to happen, as my initial experience with the Revalver Mk III demo a few months ago was very disappointing, and I tried all the same amp models. In other words, my product has sold me on Peavey's product.

 

[006]

Temps for president.

I definitely agree with you for the most part. I think a lot of the naysaying that goes on about impulses is directly because of just plain 'ol bias. As I've said in the past, I would love if everyone stopped telling everyone what they used on clips. It should not matter what was used. But I have seen it time and time again where as soon as the OP says what he used, people automatically have comments about it. Especially if there is a modeler or impulses involved. True, most sounds we hear daily on here are almost obviously modelers, but some of the guys on here do some really great work with them and I would venture to say that nobody would know the difference if they said "yeah I mic'ed up my Recto" instead of "I used the Recto sim on ReValver" and that the comments would be MUCHHHHHH different if the OP said the first statement.

~006

 

[26]

Guitars don't sound 3D, I've never heard a 3D mix. A "big" mix yeah but 3D? Fuck no.

The third dimension is the room (space) impulses won´t give you.

 

[006]

Haha, I thought somebody might say that. So I fired up the Revalver Mk III demo for the first time in a couple of months, and I loaded in one of my beta impulses. At first I didn't like it, but then I realized that by default Revalver processes the impulses to add simulated speaker breakup, etc. - turn all those knobs down!

Then it sounds way more realistic. Finally the 6505+ model started to respond more like the real thing, and the XXX and JSX, and Peavey Classic models were awesome as well. I will say that they sound even better if you just use the preamp section, and not the power amp section, since the power amp is essentially predetermined with Recabinet. If you want the extra control over EQ that the poweramp section simulation normally gives you, just add some post EQ either between the preamp and the IR, or after everything.

I'm really not trying to push Recabinet at all when I say that it's legitamized Revalver Mk III for me. I was not expecting that to happen, as my initial experience with the Revalver Mk III demo a few months ago was very disappointing, and I tried all the same amp models.

Oh man, it's just that I trust your judgement because I know you are fairly picky about sounds so I wanted to make sure you thought Recabinet was able to be used to it's full potential within ReValver. Glad to hear the results are good enough for you, and makes me happy about buying RevMKIII.

The third dimension is the room (space) impulses won´t give you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't impulses originally thought of so that engineers could apply reverb from rooms and halls and whatnot that they would otherwise never get to utilize? So it sounds funky to me when somebody says that an IR does not capture the room...because that is exactly what they were originally designed to do.

~006

 

[26]

So it sounds funky to me when somebody says that an IR does not capture the room...

~006

They do to a degree, but it`s static and that`s where the fourth dimension comes into the game (moved air), time..... :zombie:

 

[Temps]

Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't impulses originally thought of so that engineers could apply reverb from rooms and halls and whatnot that they would otherwise never get to utilize? So it sounds funky to me when somebody says that an IR does not capture the room...because that is exactly what they were originally designed to do.

~006

To be totally honest, this is not how many people here are using them. You can certainly use impulses to simulate reverb and huge rooms; but we are using them to simulate power amps and close mic'd cabinets.

Which to me, is interesting, because the 3rd dimension 26 refers to is completely removed from the equation on a very large portion of mixes because the mic is less than 3" away from the speaker. Very rarely do I see anyone recommend that you use a close mic and a far mic. The phasing problems, the fact many people don't have a "good" sounding room to record in, and so on all conspire against using the room sound for guitars. Live, especially, the 3rd dimension does not apply because it is the close mic sound that is pumped through the PA.

If anything, the "depth" that is the key part of a 3D sound comes from tight multitracking.. not the room.

 

[Kazrog]

Temps, I totally agree with you. I'm adding some condenser and room mics as impulse options for Recabinet, but the reality of the type of music most of us produce here is that having more "room" in your guitar sound makes them sound more distant and less tight than close mics. It's still a great option to have though, especially for solos, blues, rock, etc.

I begin making the final Recabinet 1.0 impulses next week, when my new Randall RT2/50 power amp arrives. The beta impulses you hear on the Recabinet site were actually made with the 3 watt, solid state built-in power amp on the ENGL e530 rack preamp - which is surprsingly loud and full sounding considering that it doubles as the headphone out!

The Randall is of course a dedicated power amp with switchable 6L6 or EL34 tube powered channels, so every cabinet will have tons of impulses featuring multiple mics/positions, 6L6 and EL34 power, etc. I've got 5 cabinets nailed down and ready for me to pick up when I'm ready, and more in the works (lots of phone calls to make!)

 

[Metaltastic]

To be totally honest, this is not how many people here are using them. You can certainly use impulses to simulate reverb and huge rooms; but we are using them to simulate power amps and close mic'd cabinets.

Uhh, dude...most people here do in fact use them to simulate power amps and close mic'd cabinets. We do know what you're talking about.

 

[Temps]

Uhh, dude...most people here do in fact use them to simulate power amps and close mic'd cabinets. We do know what you're talking about.

You don't seem to understand why I said what I did.

Recabinet

I'm very excited for this. Can I just send you some money right now?
If these are good enough, hopefully recording direct out from my Stiletto & Nova System would be an option... that could tide me over until I can afford an AxeFX.

 

[devouredremains]

This whole "not 3D" thing is bullshit. Guitars don't sound 3D, I've never heard a 3D mix. A "big" mix yeah but 3D? Fuck no. High gain guitars don't have "dynamics" like clean ones do. By their very nature, they are compressed to hell. As far as I can tell, the day I can get just as good of sound out of impulses as I can with a mic and cab has already arrived, and now all that is left to do is for people to adopt these new technologies.

The term "3D" relates to depth, a term that has been used in the recording industry longer than you or I have been alive.

It would be nice to hear a few top recording/mixing engineers around here such as Andy or James chime in as to why they don't use impulses on their releases.

The day I hear someone post clips made with impulses that can go toe to toe with guitar tones like those will be the day I will get rid of my amps. That day has not come yet.

 

[006]

To be totally honest, this is not how many people here are using them. You can certainly use impulses to simulate reverb and huge rooms; but we are using them to simulate power amps and close mic'd cabinets.

Which to me, is interesting, because the 3rd dimension 26 refers to is completely removed from the equation on a very large portion of mixes because the mic is less than 3" away from the speaker. Very rarely do I see anyone recommend that you use a close mic and a far mic. The phasing problems, the fact many people don't have a "good" sounding room to record in, and so on all conspire against using the room sound for guitars. Live, especially, the 3rd dimension does not apply because it is the close mic sound that is pumped through the PA.

If anything, the "depth" that is the key part of a 3D sound comes from tight multitracking.. not the room.

I completely understand what we are using impulses for. My comment was directed at 26 because he basically said there is no room sound in impulses, and my point was that impulses were originally thought of to capture a room's sound/character - so I thought it was funny he said that impulses can't do that.

On the other side of things... I totally agree with you that most of us are close mic'ing cabinets anyway simply because we don't want any room sound in it.

Whether or not the sound captured in an impulse is static or not, 26, the basic point was that it IS there.

It would be nice to hear a few top recording/mixing engineers around here such as Andy or James chime in as to why they don't use impulses on their releases..

They will probably say something to the effect of "I don't use them because I can just mic up an actual cabinet." To be quite honest, I don't care why Andy or James don't use impulses, that's what they want to do, they get killer results not using them - who cares why they don't use them? Are you or I well-known commercial producers? Going by that logic, we shouldn't buy anything less than PTHD rigs and have a cottage in the UK, because Andy Sneap doesn't settle for less - why should we?!

~006

 

[26]

Whether or not the sound captured in an impulse is static or not, 26, the basic point was that it IS there.
~006

Of course it is there, but i was answering in the context of a perceived 3D (epth) effect, that imo can`t be created with impulses.
Only a miced cab creates our tiny personal guitar space-time continuum.

btw. i use them too

 

[devouredremains]

I completely understand what we are using impulses for. My comment was directed at 26 because he basically said there is no room sound in impulses, and my point was that impulses were originally thought of to capture a room's sound/character - so I thought it was funny he said that impulses can't do that.

On the other side of things... I totally agree with you that most of us are close mic'ing cabinets anyway simply because we don't want any room sound in it.

Whether or not the sound captured in an impulse is static or not, 26, the basic point was that it IS there.



They will probably say something to the effect of "I don't use them because I can just mic up an actual cabinet." To be quite honest, I don't care why Andy or James don't use impulses, that's what they want to do, they get killer results not using them - who cares why they don't use them? Are you or I well-known commercial producers? Going by that logic, we shouldn't buy anything less than PTHD rigs and have a cottage in the UK, because Andy Sneap doesn't settle for less - why should we?!

~006

Your taking what I said completely out of context.

I never claimed to be a commercial producer. I just brought up a valid point about the usage of impulses on commercial releases. I figured why not suggest the two of the best known names here being Andy and James. I could have thrown Lasse and Oz in their as well. Lasse being a Cubase user and Oz being a SAWStudio user. Also neither of which live in cottages in the UK.

What I'm saying is that there is an audible difference a static impulse and a mic'd cab with all of it's great dynamics. We need what little dynamics are left after distorting the shit out of guitars.

If you guys can't hear the difference I'm fine with that. Using impulses is much easier and cheaper than micing guitar cabs on a per session basis so all the power to you. I may even be jealous of those that prefer impulses. There are some days where it would be nice to just load a wav file and be done with it.

I'm not here to bash impulses. I use them all the time when tracking bands and if Kazrog has truly made a giant breakthrough with impulses it will be great. For the price he's mentioned he would be giving a tremendous deal to all of us if they work as claimed. He will definitely make some cash from recabinet and some of it will surely be mine.

I'm patiently awaiting the demos just like everyone else. There's no need to start blowing things out of proportion and taking what I said out of context over something like this.

EDIT: I would also like to add to the discussion that most people don't close mic a cabinet to solely cancel out room information. One of the main reasons it's done is to utilize something we all know as the proximity effect. Toss an sm57 a foot back and the tone will be substantially thinner.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

FWIW, I hope Shane does well with ReCabinet. It's a good idea & should fill a need.

 

[26]

today`s screwy morning thought:

impulse room and "real" room are comparable to somebody looking at a painting instead out of the window.
:zombie:

 

[Ermz]

It's more like looking out a window and everything is moving without being animated, rather than looking out a window and seeing everything normally. The impulses may be static, but the tone going into them is variable, it's just that the impulse doesn't move 'with' the tone, if you know what I mean.

 

[26]

It's more like looking out a window and everything is moving without being animated, rather than looking out a window and seeing everything normally. The impulses may be static, but the tone going into them is variable, it's just that the impulse doesn't move 'with' the tone, if you know what I mean.

that sounds good, yes