<-- Guitarnoob wants to know about low tuning..

[Erkan]

Yo!

Kinda got inspired by many of the bands people posted in "I like Textures, so.." and I will probably attempt to make something heavily inspired by... really heavy music, but yet with all my fucked up and twisted influences (hello disco part in "Beyond Final Mix"). So I've got a couple questions, help would be much appreciated for a guitar noob like myself!

First though, here is the guitar I bought recently for a cheap price from someone I know ESP LTD MH-250, and it feels quite good. Looks nice, comfortable, has a tune-o-matic which is a simple and solid construction... I don't have much to worry about (wouldn't wanna wrestle with a Floyd!) . This is quite an upgrade from the borrowed Yamaha begineer's guitar I was using for my first project. Bear in mind that my primary instrument is drums, so this ESP LTD is going to last quite a long time for me I guess.

The guitar is currently tuned in Csus4, so the strings are CGCGCF (almost the same tuning as Devin uses). I fell in love with the intervals between the strings and I can no longer stand playing on a standard tuning, so I will probably keep the same interval, but I want to go lower. As of right now, the guitar is doing quite fine on this tuning with .11 - .52 strings, but the lowest string is slightly too slacky for my taste. The neck is currently very straight (too straight according to a guitarist friend of mine, who says it should be slightly bent inwards), and the guitar seems to handle this tuning fine.

Ok, the guitar is covered now, so here is the first question. I want to tune it pretty low, and I have a pack of Zakk Wylde strings that are .10 - .60. Am I right in believing that these strings will do fine for a low tuning, and by low I mean like a B tuning on a 6-string guitar?

And second question: I've heard it is dangerous to tune a normal guitar to anything but standard E. Another guitarist friend of mine says that in the long run, the guitar will crack and the neck will bend because it is not built for anything other than standard E-tuning. Is this true, or can I go with heavy gauge strings and tune it low, even though it's a 6-string "normal" guitar?

Happily awaiting your experienced answers

Sincerely
a "fucking guitar noob" (to quote a John Petrucci parody video).

 

[Metaltastic]

Guitars can be in any tuning, that's what a truss rod is for, your friend is the guitar n00b

And a .60 for a low B is more than fine; personally, I like a .54, but if a .52 in C is too thin for you (it's just right for me), then .60 will be fine. YES I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WILL DISAGREE - but it's all preference, so try it for yourself And yes, the neck should have a slight bow; the way to judge is to push down the first fret on the lowest string (with your left hand) and the fret over the neck joint on the same string (with your right hand), and see how much space is between the string and the 6th-7th frets (there should be like 1-2 mm). Make adjustments VERY gradually, like 1/4 turn at a time, and let it sit for awhile before you make up your mind

 

[ahjteam]

The guitar is currently tuned in Csus4, so the strings are CGCGCF (almost the same tuning as Devin uses).

Just out of curiocity: Why that kind of oddball tuning instead of open C (CGCGCE)?

edit: okay, I know one more oddball tuning: Karnivool uses BF#BGBE, which is a hybrid between drop B and standard tuning

 

[Erkan]

Guitars can be in any tuning, that's what a truss rod is for, your friend is the guitar n00b

Oh! I'm gonna slam this in his face... that bastard. He has always been the type who bitches to come up with arguments against things that he considers "metal". "Low tuning? No way, that does this and that, yada yada".

And a .60 for a low B is more than fine; personally, I like a .54, but if a .52 in C is too thin for you (it's just right for me), then .60 will be fine.

Hmm, alright, guess I will just go with Zakk's set then. Who knows, maybe I'll go all the way down to A# then

And yes, the neck should have a slight bow; the way to judge is to push down the first fret on the lowest string (with your left hand) and the fret over the neck joint on the same string (with your right hand), and see how much space is between the string and the 6th-7th frets (there should be like 1-2 mm).

Thanks for this tip! I will make sure I have that spacing after I've changed the strings. I think my guitar has double truss rods in it, think I read that on the net. So, does that mean there are 2 screws hidden underneath that little plastic thingy I need to take off on the "head" of the guitar (can't check now, it's in the rehearsal place )? And if so, do I turn them both 1/4 or would I turn them both 1/8? Ahem.... also... which way do I turn it? If I tighten the screw (clockwise), does that make the neck bow inward?

Make adjustments VERY gradually, like 1/4 turn at a time, and let it sit for awhile before you make up your mind

Yeah I had heard about this, and I will wait a day before turning them again. Thank you for your help Marcus =)

 

[Erkan]

Just out of curiocity: Why that kind of oddball tuning instead of open C (CGCGCE)?

edit: okay, I know one more oddball tuning: Karnivool uses BF#BGBE, which is a hybrid between drop B and standard tuning

I just love the Csus4, that's why

Haha, no real reason really, it just fits me PERFECTLY. When I just sit and play melodies, I can play things that would be so hard for me to play on a standard tuning, and I can experiment much more and just go nuts.

I've also always liked to break away from standards, so maybe that has something to do with my choise, but definately not the real reason as to why I'm not in a more standard tuning. Don't forget I'm a freakin' drummer. You do know that drummers are weird, so maybe that's an answer to your question right there pal

 

[Metaltastic]

Oh! I'm gonna slam this in his face... that bastard. He has always been the type who bitches to come up with arguments against things that he considers "metal". "Low tuning? No way, that does this and that, yada yada".

All I can say is most metal bands use regular guitars tuned down, and thicker strings and adjustment of the truss rod make it totally safe.

Thanks for this tip! I will make sure I have that spacing after I've changed the strings. I think my guitar has double truss rods in it, think I read that on the net. So, does that mean there are 2 screws hidden underneath that little plastic thingy I need to take off on the "head" of the guitar (can't check now, it's in the rehearsal place )? And if so, do I turn them both 1/4 or would I turn them both 1/8? Ahem.... also... which way do I turn it? If I tighten the screw (clockwise), does that make the neck bow inward?

Actually, I'm pretty sure that model has a double expanding truss rod, which means that unlike on a normal rod, where you tighten to straighten the neck and loosen to make it bow, on a double-expanding you tighten it to straighten it, but then tighten it in the opposite direction to make it bow. So IOW, to make it bow you would "loosen" it until it gets loose, then keep going in that direction until it gets tight again, and that's when you're pushing in the opposite direction (which is what you want). This explains it better than I could

Yeah I had heard about this, and I will wait a day before turning them again. Thank you for your help Marcus =)

No problem dude! Glad you're still playing

 

[Erkan]

No problem dude! Glad you're still playing

Thanks for the tips and link, will read it now

And about the still playing... well, I do feel better about drumming again but it's still not back up to where I was before. But fuck it, there's no point in thinking about the future all the time, I won't ever get anything done that way so yes, I will aim to make another batch of songs in the near future. Also, I'm improving quite nicely on the guitar so... shit, this is gonna be fun Lower than C tuning, here I come!

Edit: I forgot one important thing to ask! The screws to adjust the intonation on the Tune-o-matic are facing inwards, towards the strings and the neck. The pickup is in the way for a screw driver to reach the screws for intonation, and the strings themselves are kinda in the way. Aren't the screws supposed to be on the other side, facing out and away from the neck/pickups rather than facing in towards the neck/pickups?

Like this:

<xxxxxxxxxx|--[]--[]--|S

so that the screws, which is the "S" are on the other side, facing away from the pickups which are "[]"

rather than:

<xxxxxxxxxx|--[]--[]--S|

where the screws "S" are facing towards the pickups "[]"


Hope this made any sense... :S Basically, as it is now, to intonate properly, I would have to remove the pickup, and to do that, I would have to remove the strings. Logic tells me this is not the way it's supposed to be and that someone fucked up when mounting the Tune-o-matic on the guitar

 

[Wolfeman]

IMO, if you are going to be dropping the low string, go with the bigger set (70 instead of a 60 i think). Although that's my preference. I have a heavy right hand so I like em thick.

 

[Wolfeman]

Edit: I forgot one important thing to ask! The screws to adjust the intonation on the Tune-o-matic are facing inwards, towards the strings and the neck. The pickup is in the way for a screw driver to reach the screws for intonation, and the strings themselves are kinda in the way. Aren't the screws supposed to be on the other side, facing out and away from the neck/pickups rather than facing in towards the neck/pickups?

Like this:

<xxxxxxxxxx|--[]--[]--|S

so that the screws, which is the "S" are on the other side, facing away from the pickups which are "[]"

rather than:

<xxxxxxxxxx|--[]--[]--S|

where the screws "S" are facing towards the pickups "[]"


Hope this made any sense... :S Basically, as it is now, to intonate properly, I would have to remove the pickup, and to do that, I would have to remove the strings. Logic tells me this is not the way it's supposed to be and that someone fucked up when mounting the Tune-o-matic on the guitar

They can be either way. I've had them differently on different guitars/tunings to get an extra few turn out of the saddle for proper intonation. Just use a 90deg screw driver.

 

[MetallyGuitarded]

Guitars can be in any tuning, that's what a truss rod is for, your friend is the guitar n00b

And a .60 for a low B is more than fine; personally, I like a .54, but if a .52 in C is too thin for you (it's just right for me), then .60 will be fine. YES I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WILL DISAGREE - but it's all preference, so try it for yourself And yes, the neck should have a slight bow; the way to judge is to push down the first fret on the lowest string (with your left hand) and the fret over the neck joint on the same string (with your right hand), and see how much space is between the string and the 6th-7th frets (there should be like 1-2 mm). Make adjustments VERY gradually, like 1/4 turn at a time, and let it sit for awhile before you make up your mind

+ 1 to all of this

 

[Erkan]

They can be either way. I've had them differently on different guitars/tunings to get an extra few turn out of the saddle for proper intonation. Just use a 90deg screw driver.

Oooh, okay! Thanks. Guess I'm better off not screwing around with the saddle then, as I have never done it before. I'll just get myself a special screw driver then.

 

[JBroll]

And here I come to ruin everything...

The ZW 10-60 set is fucked. The 60 is fine, but the other two wound strings are fucking bonkers - if I recall correctly it's close to 10-13-17-36-52-60... outright fucking stupid. There will be a HUGE difference in tension between the low G and the low C... this is a problem faced by most string sets, but that ZW set will make it even worse - drop that low C with the current strings down a few steps and then see how you like that. PM me if you want to set up a better string set from single strings, nothing apart from a custom set will really be balanced at all. The string packagers are a bunch of clueless jackoffs who make arbitrary decisions and stick to them for decades, and I hope they all die horrible deaths.

You can tune lower on ordinary guitars without too many problems in that range, you just need to know what string 'feel' you like in standard tuning and then match that tension and feel in a lower tuning. You could get a baritone, but you might not like how they play (longer necks mean bigger distances between frets)... you could also get a seven and have more range everywhere.

Jeff

 

[Joematthews]

+1 to everything you said jeff, especially on how riddiculously unbalanced the zakk wylde set is.

Joe

 

[JBroll]

I use the 11-70 set frequently (thicken the plain strings slightly and put a 70 in place of the 60 - it's much closer to balanced) but the 60 set reaches new levels of stoopid.

Jeff

 

[DominikJW]

I agree with Jeff. I used once a 10-60 set and it was just ridiculous. When tuned to B the wound strings were fine but the plain ones were loose like Jenna Jamesons' pussy after 8 hours of shooting. In the E standard the plain ones felt good but the wound were hard like a rock.

 

[Metaltastic]

YES, thank you - I'm not a fan of overly thick rhythm strings (as I said, I like a .52 for a low C), but as a soloist, I can't understand how people can use the top 3 strings from a .10-.46 set in low tunings, I use a 12-52 standard Jazz set for C-standard

 

[JBroll]

Thick or thin, completely unbalanced strings like those are the work of total bastards.

Jeff

 

[WestCoastCrush]

Yeah, the Zakk Wylde set is unbalanced. Gorjira_, you should also consider a set of strings Gibson makes called Powerlines. They have a set for dropped-C tuning and if I'm not mistaken, the gauges in that set are 13, 18, 28w, 38, 48, 60. I used to use it on my Les Paul and the tensions were pretty nice in dropped-C as well as dropped-B (though I preferred the feel in dropped-C; I'm a bit of a tension freak) but they may be a little too heavy on a 25+1/2" scale guitar. Admittedly, I don't use them anymore, instead choosing lighter gauges. As Dino said while he was in fear factory "I tried using heavier gauges, but the thicker I went, the muddier I sounded".

 

[Erkan]

Thanks Jeff, and everyone, for pointing this out. A friend of mine who plays the guitar recommended the ZW set for me, and given the fact that I don't know much about the ins and outs when it comes to strings, tensions, saddles, truss rods and whatever (just the same way as a guitarist who doesn't know shit about drum-tech), I went for what he said and got that set.

I do feel it's important to have a balanced set though, so Jeff or anyone could post recommendations of string gauges for a Csus4 (or even darker, like A# F A# F A# D#) tuning here in the thread instead of a PM. This way, everyone can see it and there might be someone else who benefits from the tips, or there might just be nice discussions about strings

WestCoastCrush: Yeah of course thicker strings are going to be muddier, but too thin isn't really my thing either. Although I do like that djent tone that comes from thinner strings, I prefer something inbetween. I know pretty much nothing about what string gauges to use, as I said, I'm not a guitarist but I just recently bought my own guitar and just practise to be able to advance and make my own music. I've already learned tons from this thread though, and hopefully I'll learn about gauges too and then I'm good to go.

Your tips are appreciated guys, I'll pay it back to the forum in the future. Perhaps another pack of 600+ samples of... something?

 

[Metaltastic]

Yeah, you can post your response to my PM here, Jeff, that'd rule!