hahaha could it be true?! is joe really banned?!
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Liverslapper
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El Stormo
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In most cases, dialects are comprehensible by other speakers of a language.
What the Hell? No.
ac⋅cent, [n. ak-sent; v. ak-sent, ak-sent] such a mode of pronunciation recognized as being of foreign origin: He still speaks with an accent.
di⋅a⋅lect, [dahy-uh-lekt] a provincial, rural, or socially distinct variety of a language that differs from the standard language, esp. when considered as substandard.
I'm not American. And you're the one who's got it confused, mate. No need to be condescending.
dreaming neon darkspot
natures' retard
Liverslapper
w00t
Dead Winter
STAHP
In most cases, dialects are comprehensible by other speakers of a language.
What the Hell? No.
ac⋅cent, [n. ak-sent; v. ak-sent, ak-sent] such a mode of pronunciation recognized as being of foreign origin: He still speaks with an accent.
di⋅a⋅lect, [dahy-uh-lekt] a provincial, rural, or socially distinct variety of a language that differs from the standard language, esp. when considered as substandard.
I'm not American. And you're the one who's got it confused, mate. No need to be condescending.
Not being condescending, mang, just stating the facts. Sorry if it came across that way...
I'll RE-POST your own definitions for you:
ac⋅cent, [n. ak-sent; v. ak-sent, ak-sent] such a mode of pronunciation recognized as being of foreign origin: He still speaks with an accent.
It says it right there: SUCH A MODE OF PRONUNCIATION RECOGNIZED AS BEING OF FOREIGN ORIGIN. Accent is about PRONUNCIATION, not about language. I think you see the word "foreign" and assume it means another country, when foreign only means in this case something different from the person's point of view.
di⋅a⋅lect, [dahy-uh-lekt] a provincial, rural, or socially distinct variety of a language that differs from the standard language, esp. when considered as substandard.
There it is again. A DISTINCT VARIETY OF LANGUAGE THAT DIFFERS FROM THE STANDARD LANGUAGE. It's not a second language, but it's quite dissimilar from the original language. A dialect is like taking an entire language and taking a piece of it and forming it into your own "mini-language", complete with vocabulary that is completely foreign to non-speakers of said dialect. There are still of course similarities, which is why the Veneto or Napolitano dialects are dialects and not languages.
Come to Venice or Rome or Florence or Sicily or Naples and speak with someone in each of those cities who speaks the local dialect. You'll see that someone speaking in that dialect is almost incomprehensible to someone speaking normal Italian who has never heard said dialect. I'm not saying it's like that everywhere, just in many countries with romance languages. It's a bit similar but entire words are different and have different meanings or are completely non-existent. What's more, if one person from each of those cities were in a room together and were forced to speak in their local dialects, they wouldn't be able to understand each other. Spain is similar in places. Catellano (sp?) is closer to Friulano than Spanish...it's a dialect.
That said, to throw yet another wrench into the equation, people from all these regions also have ACCENTS as well! Take a person speaking normal Italian from here in the north and normal Italian from the south, even if they use proper grammar and everything, they speak with accents as well, just like in the US. But the thing that separates them is that they each have their own dialects as well as their national language. Typically, the southern Italians are the stereotypical "ITSA ME! MAHRIO!!!" type of pronunciation, whereas in the north it's a bit more refined and classic-sounding. Very pronounced and well-spoken. Again, just like the US.
Just for the record, I know you're not American and I wasn't aiming that last comment at you.
Karmic
speedy meatmonger
Dead Winter
STAHP
No, his definitions basically just agreed with me. He disproved his own point. I merely gave him more examples.
I guess I have to resort to this:
* Venetian: Marco el se drio rivar ('Marco is arriving')
* Venetian Italian: Marco (el) sta rivando
* Standard Italian: Marco sta arrivando
You have the Venetian dialect known just around Venice, the Veneto dialect known just around the entire Veneto region, and standard Italian. Only the standard Italian is a language...the other two are DIALECTS, NOT ACCENTS.
Marco el se drio rivar and Marco sta arrivando don't sound anything alike because one is a language and the other is a DIALECT. Pronunciation doesn't even come into play here...the accent is a moot point if the linking verbs and action verbs are completely different. If someone came up to me and said "Marco el se drio rivar", I wouldn't know what the fuck he was talking about, but if that person said, "Marco sta arrivando", I would because I speak Italian, not a regional dialect.
My neighbor is Roman and it's difficult to understand when he speaks Italian because of his Roman ACCENT. He doesn't speak to me in Roman DIALECT because accent or not, I wouldn't understand shit. But even though he has a thick ACCENT when he speaks Italian, I can still understand him.
I guess I have to resort to this:
* Venetian: Marco el se drio rivar ('Marco is arriving')
* Venetian Italian: Marco (el) sta rivando
* Standard Italian: Marco sta arrivando
You have the Venetian dialect known just around Venice, the Veneto dialect known just around the entire Veneto region, and standard Italian. Only the standard Italian is a language...the other two are DIALECTS, NOT ACCENTS.
Marco el se drio rivar and Marco sta arrivando don't sound anything alike because one is a language and the other is a DIALECT. Pronunciation doesn't even come into play here...the accent is a moot point if the linking verbs and action verbs are completely different. If someone came up to me and said "Marco el se drio rivar", I wouldn't know what the fuck he was talking about, but if that person said, "Marco sta arrivando", I would because I speak Italian, not a regional dialect.
My neighbor is Roman and it's difficult to understand when he speaks Italian because of his Roman ACCENT. He doesn't speak to me in Roman DIALECT because accent or not, I wouldn't understand shit. But even though he has a thick ACCENT when he speaks Italian, I can still understand him.
Karmic
speedy meatmonger
not really, since
1. foreign DOES mean both international and regional, although it is mainly associated with from other nations or countries.
2. that your examples are taken from one of the countries with the most obscure dialects of all. Dialects, even though in some cases massively different like your examples, still are defined for being regional.
3. you said "Accent is about PRONUNCIATION, not about language."... all languages have varying ways of pronounciation, so that doesn't make him wrong there, since other languages are about pronounciation as well then your argument falls there
1. foreign DOES mean both international and regional, although it is mainly associated with from other nations or countries.
2. that your examples are taken from one of the countries with the most obscure dialects of all. Dialects, even though in some cases massively different like your examples, still are defined for being regional.
3. you said "Accent is about PRONUNCIATION, not about language."... all languages have varying ways of pronounciation, so that doesn't make him wrong there, since other languages are about pronounciation as well then your argument falls there
Dead Winter
STAHP
not really, since
1. foreign DOES mean both international and regional, although it is mainly associated with from other nations or countries.
2. that your examples are taken from one of the countries with the most obscure dialects of all. Dialects, even though in some cases massively different like your examples, still are defined for being regional.
3. you said "Accent is about PRONUNCIATION, not about language."... all languages have varying ways of pronounciation, so that doesn't make him wrong there, since other languages are about pronounciation as well then your argument falls there
Language is about grammatical structure, not about pronunciation. Pronunciation is only how you convey the language...the grammatical structure is what makes it a language. It's about the rules. If a French person speaks English with a French accent, is he or she not speaking English?
I don't understand the regional argument. Dialects and accents are both bound by regions because to have something different you must come from something different. The only point I'm trying to make is that a dialect isn't about pronunciation as much as it's about the rules and grammatical structure and in some cases non-existent words with respect to the official language. Accents are all about pronunciation as the grammatical structure stays the same.
In English, just because I come from Louisiana, I don't say "I live in Italy from 5 years." Just like anyone else who speaks native English, I would say, "I have been living in Italy for five years" but only with a slight southern accent.
I understand, however, that Italian dialects are the extreme form of dialects and that not everywhere is as such, like I said. In any case, both are based on the same language, but a dialect has very little to do with pronunciation, whereas an accent is in and of itself only pronunciation.
The English say TOE-MAH-TOE when I say TOE-MAY-TOE. That isn't dialect...that's an accent.
Maybe I'm just an extreme case and I'm sure there are many other dialects around the world that don't differ as much. Here is an example of the difference between the Veneto dialect and the official Italian language. I think you'll see just how stark the contrasts are and why my reasoning is as such.
Venetian / English / Italian /Venetian word Origin
bèver, trincàr/ to drink /bere / bibere (Latin), trinken (German)
becar / to be spicy hot /piccante /from the verb beccare (Italian), literally "to peck"
bisato / eel / anguilla /Latin bestia ("beast"); cf. biscia (a kind of snake)
copàr / to kill /uccidere /from Latin and later Italian accoppare, literally "to behead"
nòtoła, / bat / pipistrello / "the one of the night", from Italian notte
As you can see, there is an extreme difference between the dialect and the official language to the point that accent doesn't even factor into the equation.
Karmic
speedy meatmonger
Language is both about grammatical structure and pronounciation. Everyone doesn't use the same vowels and tones as english or italians, like for example scandinavians use alot of intonations and the "sj" (sounds like "sh" sort of). Yes, a french person speaking english is speaking english. But language is so much more then just grammar, especially if you put into accord that loads of languages use the same kind of grammar.
But now you're mixing in two different arguments here, that accent is still only region bound when it's (mainly) defined as nation bound. Dialects are usually the result of a foreign language integrated under a long term but generally sacrificing alot of the main things that one of the languages have. In certain cases you'd get a really strong mix of both, like in alot of italian regions... or you'd get one that would still be unmistakenably of one nation while with a slight alteration.
Yup. Two different nations, hence an accent. Your point?
Cat5Messiah
Violator of Sheep
Karmic
speedy meatmonger
Cat5Messiah
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let it go!
DreamNeonBlack
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Dead Winter
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