Hardcore is saving metal.

[JayKeeley]

The problem with this thread is that you think metal needs saving. That's the inherent flaw within the statement. It just doesn't.

The thing that you people aren't getting is that everyone already accepts that original metal died in 1990. Ever since then, you're getting a rehash of ideas. I've been saying this for years now. The bands that came out in the 90's through to today are either the same old guys, or new guys doing the same old thing.

Yes, there is no doub that EXCELLENT "metal" bands emerged in the 90's and 00's, but did they *really* add anything to what was already done? Come on, the answer is no. Name one metal band from the 90's and I'll give you 3 more original bands from the 70's and 80's. It's simple arithmetic.

I can't really comment on where bands like Watchmaker or Isis are taking metal, and if they are the next evolutionary step to being a 'variation of a theme' then so be it. They're not saving metal, they're just adding a different flavor.

BUT, and it's a bigg butt, , at the end of the day, it's the same old cliched argument -- it's all about personal tastes. I like heavy metal for what it was and what it is today. I don't need the next evolutionary step. Just like there are people who listen to 60's jazz, or 70's prog rock, they also listen to the new bands paying homage to that older style.

That's what metal is to me: it's the original bands combined with the new guys paying tribute to those bands in a genre they love. I don't want (or need) to step outside the boundary, because then I might as well stop listening to metal altogether.

Metal is not -core. And vice versa. Yes, they may be variations of each other, but that is strictly an opinion. Polluting metal with -core only serves to destroy the sanctity of something that is quite pure at heart.

 

[NAD]

I don't need the next evolutionary step.

There we have it. I need that extra push, that step beyond borders, it's what attracted me to extreme metal in the first place. When it becomes saturated by clones it gets boring, and therefore no longer extreme.

 

[Nate The Great]

There we have it. I need that extra push, that step beyond borders, it's what attracted me to extreme metal in the first place. When it becomes saturated by clones it gets boring, and therefore no longer extreme.

Exactly!

 

[JayKeeley]

I will say that hardcore is directly responsible for the metal genre to continue remaining fresh, cunning, and kickass.

The best part about this is that there will be no dispute about you getting all the dire shit promos now.

Trad. metal has been on full fledged rehash mode for years, just look at the latest Ozzfest with all the geezers, just how much new material will be on those setlists?

NONE WITH ANY LUCK!! Geez...I really thought everyone understood all this. Did I just wake up in a parallel universe? I would donate a nut to see Maiden do a Live After Death set list.

So where do we go for fresh new faces? Dillinger Escape Plan. Isis. Neurosis. Watchmaker. Meshuggah. These are the groups keeping metal alive

No. If that were the case, those are the bands that metal fans would be listening to, but the funny thing about metal fans is that they listen to metal.

Those bands you list are simply not included in all of those 83 CD-Rs or promos that you have sitting in front of you. You being burned out on metal does NOT equal metal needing to be saved by hardcore (go wash your mouth out with bleach). It be you that thar needs the baptism of fire.

By the way, I stopped listening to metal altogether for about 5 years (I think between 91-96). I think everyone goes through this burn out phase at some point, although it was easier to drop out back then when the intraweb omg wasn't really accesible and the usual suspects had run out of new ideas.

 

[JayKeeley]

There we have it. I need that extra push, that step beyond borders, it's what attracted me to extreme metal in the first place. When it becomes saturated by clones it gets boring, and therefore no longer extreme.

Abso-fucking-lutely!!!!!!

The clones = disposable metal.

Like I've said, I need 10 CDs. And all of them will be original bands. Everything else is gravy - why deny myself of guilty pleasures, eh?

Now if I want to listen to jazz, I'll buy a jazz record. No matter how hard I try to believe, that jazz band will never start magically playing metal.

 

[speed]

If i may say, I 100% agree with you NAD. I was meaning to post the following but thought it was to arrogant and anus.com-ish, and I dont have but a basic knowledge of composational theory but anyway, here it goes.

I have a different interpretation than most; if not everyone else. Metal in whatever form: death metal, black metal, thrash metal, etc., has become stagnant. I believe this stagnation is due to these metal bands insistence on following the same musical form and structure. There have been few variations in metal musical form in the last 10 years; its played out. Its no different in other genres of music, art, etc. In fact the only innovations I know of in the last 10 years are not of the form of the music: the introduction of ethnic music and themes in death metal, death vocals in thrash, and jazz elements in black metal --like Solefald some Enslaved. A genre like metal becomes dead, stagnant, as its form and structure can go no further.

Now the new core bands like Isis and Neurosis even Sunn0)))) signify a new much more open musical form; less reliance on a set form and structure, even on specific technical skills ( like how fast one can play a guitar) etc, but instead more of a reliance on atmosphere, buildups, emotion, sound, tone etc. Its a new form of music, heavy, but not anything like metal. Sure it has some roots in metal, but listen to Tool or Isis, and how they construct their songs, and then listen to Megadeth or Priest.

Now the one genre I have some difficulty in is Black metal. It seems most bands ae just copying others, or reverting to the old primitive Darkthrone sound. But, bands like Solefald and Enslaved Borknagar seem to be evolving unlike any other metal genre.

 

[Russell]

There we have it. I need that extra push, that step beyond borders, it's what attracted me to extreme metal in the first place. When it becomes saturated by clones it gets boring, and therefore no longer extreme.

This also sums up the main reason I listen to "metal". It is one of the few modern genres where something new is happening, boundaries are broken, and there are still some fresh ideas (largely in the crossover stuff). Might as well scratch the "metal" and put extreme music in general, however, because if we're being pedantic all the new crossovers that are making life (and music listening) interesting are - by the very fact they are breaking new ground - not metal. Just related to it.

And I can see JK's point with metal being rehashed since whenever, yet was metal such a step up from hard rock? Was traditional rock such a step up from rock n roll? Was rock and roll so different from blues? In the end, everything is just a "slightly different version" of what was done before, and as such either "metal" in one form or another, will never die, or it died the minute man started making music Having written this, I think the entire argument probably ends up boiling down to semantics over naming genres, and when metal is no longer called metal...

 

[NAD]

The best part about this is that there will be no dispute about you getting all the dire shit promos now.

Come on, I was already on that list, this changes nothing.

I would donate a nut to see Maiden do a Live After Death set list.

So you want your Iron Maiden to be the Rolling Stones! Ugh, if the group is just a shadow of their former selves, as evident by playing exclusively their old material, time to hang up the guitar man. Leave your legacy untarnished. Case in point, Black Sabbath. No way in hell would I go see those geezers crank out Paranoid while doped up on Metamucil. Will I watch old bootlegs from 1972 and rock out with my cock out? Shit yes!

Those bands you list are simply not included in all of those 83 CD-Rs or promos that you have sitting in front of you. You being burned out on metal does NOT equal metal needing to be saved by hardcore (go wash your mouth out with bleach). It be you that thar needs the baptism of fire.

I've been waiting for a bleach, or other such damaging liquid, ridden post from you. I'd say that burnout period is over, I've actually been listening to a lot of black and death lately. But when groups are duplicating what Ulver and Darkthrone already did 10 years ago, there's no point in "livin in the fuckin past" with newer groups.

I know I'll never convince you that a lot of this stuff is metal beyond comprehension, but groups like Meshuggah and Dillinger Escape Plan are so fawkin' methull they make my eyes turn into liquid titanium and spew out my skull whenever I spin them. I threw out my back last week listening to Meshuggah, it ruled! Also proof that I'm getting old, dammit.

 

[Ayeka]

People need to learn this is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course, when most metal listeners think "hardcore", they think "slam dancing, shouty vocals, breakdowns, macho music". When most hardcore listeners think "metal" they think "ugly guys with long hair growling incoherently over chugga-chugga guitars".

People that diss -core for no other reason than a knee jerk reaction are just as bad as those idiots that go slam dancing, except they are on the opposite end of the spectrum.

It could just be that we don't like hardcore music

 

[J.]

Could be. But how much of that opinion is based on your actual thoughts on FULL ALBUMS of hardcore music, not just samples, downloads, comps? And how much of that opinion is based on the trends of hardcore music?

 

[lurch70]

I am not so sure what you can classify as hardcore nowadays. Coming from the old school hardcore was Agnostic Front, DRI (to a certain point), Murphy's Law, Leeway, etc. Some great Crossover records from Cro-Mags, Crumbsuckers and Ludichrist were huge in the Metal Community.

This brings up a questions.

In the 80's Hardcore kids usually had their own scene and were very protective of it. Metal kids were usually into HC to a certain degree but never the other way around.

Question being ... does the typical Isis, Neurosis, etc. fan listen to Metal or do they just stick to their scene. Not sure if I am being clear ...
I know people that are primarily Metalheads usually crossover to other genres ... but does today's HC kid crossover to metal?

 

[Demonspell]

I think one point we're missing here is that hardcore does not accurately describe any of the bands that Adrian mentioned in his thread, despite their origins, and get discussed the most here, it's too limiting for the likes of Isis & Neurosis. Which I think is all the more reason why there shouldn't be this big division between -core and metal, no reluctance to embrace bands that are challenging perceptions of what both genres should be. Is -core saving metal? Definitely not by itself.

 

[lurch70]

By the way, I stopped listening to metal altogether for about 5 years (I think between 91-96). I think everyone goes through this burn out phase at some point, although it was easier to drop out back then when the intraweb omg wasn't really accesible and the usual suspects had run out of new ideas.

For me this happened somewhere between 94-00 ...

I think some of you listen to way too much music daily. No big deal, we all go through those stages. Was like that in the 80's myself. Nowadays, i just put something on in the car and really only listen to stuff that I enjoy and entertains me.

Of course you guys that need to review stuff and get bombed with promos are in a different boat and not surprisingly bored.

I find stuff fresh even in a band like Blood Red Throne, which most of you think its rehashed shit, because I feel some youthful soul and energy in the tracks and as 5th generation as it is, it sounds damn good ...

 

[J.]

I'm not sure, but I do know that the bands that combine Gothenburg and hardcore like Darkest Hour are very popular among hardcore enthusiasts. And I'm sure hardcore fans like bands like The Great Deceiver and probably the dumbed down sounds of In Flames and SOilwork because it's easy listening. Hardcore fans also like Lamb of God and Shadows Fall and God Forbid, all three shit bands.

Isis and Neurosis have moved well beyond the hardcore scene. Neurosis hasn't been part of the true hardcore scene since 1991, moving more into the sludge doomcore whatever thing they revolutionized with Souls at Zero. Isis left behind hardcore with Oceanic. These days, those two bands pretty much appeal to everyone including art fags and post-rock idiots

I love metal, -osis/Isis, and some hardcore. And for that I give no apologies. Best of all worlds.

 

[JayKeeley]

Come on, I was already on that list, this changes nothing.

Yes but at one point I think we started feeling guilty.

So you want your Iron Maiden to be the Rolling Stones!

As opposed to what? Tribute bands? I guess I don't get your point, particularly with Maiden...everything else is just filler aka guilty pleasures.

Ugh, if the group is just a shadow of their former selves, as evident by playing exclusively their old material, time to hang up the guitar man. Leave your legacy untarnished. Case in point, Black Sabbath.

Yeah with Sabbath, it's like doing pilgramage to Mecca or something. I just want to kick the bucket knowing that I at least got to see those fuckers play together once in my life.

I know I'll never convince you that a lot of this stuff is metal beyond comprehension, but groups like Meshuggah and Dillinger Escape Plan are so fawkin' methull they make my eyes turn into liquid titanium and spew out my skull whenever I spin them. I threw out my back last week listening to Meshuggah, it ruled! Also proof that I'm getting old, dammit.

See thread about the 7 most important bands today. Are they doing anything new? No. Are they at least flying the flag for metal? Hell yes.

As I'll see OzzFest this year, I will also book a flight to Atlanta, get a hotel room, and get my ass down to Georgia this year just to see Orphaned Land(primarily) play for 45 minutes.

I would never do that for a hardcore band.

 

[Nate The Great]

Will I be an old geezer someday that sits around saying stuff like, "I'd give my left nut to have Meshuggah play a Chaosphere set list."?

I'm seriously asking this question. Because I might just go ahead and shoot myself. I can't ever imagine not wanting to find something new and refreshing. That is partly why I balance out my musical tastes with so much jazz.

 

[JayKeeley]

And I'm sure hardcore fans like bands like The Great Deceiver and probably the dumbed down sounds of In Flames and SOilwork because it's easy listening.

You mean gromits?

Hardcore fans also like Lamb of God and Shadows Fall and God Forbid, all three shit bands.

How funny that nuMetal was (and is being) replaced with metalcore. Otherwise what are they doing that hasn't already been done better?

Isis left behind hardcore with Oceanic.

Must get this.

I love metal, -osis/Isis, and some hardcore. And for that I give no apologies. Best of all worlds.

This also applies to anything new and old. NOTE: Album release dates are TOTALLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY IRRELEVANT.

I can't ever imagine not wanting to find something new and refreshing.

cue famous U2 song.

Besides, isn't it our duty to be sifting through the archives of metal as opposed to seeing what the latest release is? Who gives a shit whether it's new or not?

 

[J.]

For Oceanic, just imagine Panopticon being a lot heavier and with occasional female vocals and a lot more of those caveman grunts.

 

[KILL TULLY]

IM very drunk. Which i sdhtink is the best statea of midn to deabte stuf fof course.




i fahitnk somone said it already asbut id aon't think masetal needs saving...wahst the fuck is so bad about metal...dyaradghhhh, i don't dwant ti to end us oem gay fagg dtrend like every other msuci genre. ... its the ohtnly subculture that has sandy semblance of waht it was aoriginaly....uhh......yeasy and ahrdcores gay...even though i smade abpost abou thow i like blood for blood...damnmit....uhhhhhhhhh......thrash till death and stuff?

 

[EVERLOSTINDEADETERNITY]

IM very drunk. Which i sdhtink is the best statea of midn to deabte stuf fof course.
i fahitnk somone said it already asbut id aon't think masetal needs saving...wahst the fuck is so bad about metal...dyaradghhhh, i don't dwant ti to end us oem gay fagg dtrend like every other msuci genre. ... its the ohtnly subculture that has sandy semblance of waht it was aoriginaly....uhh......yeasy and ahrdcores gay...even though i smade abpost abou thow i like blood for blood...damnmit....uhhhhhhhhh......thrash till death and stuff?

Hahaha Yeah what he said. Fuck the bastards.