Has anyone ever tried meditation?
- Thread starter nemesis_outlawed
- Start date
DemonOfTheFall
The 1st REAL Demon here..
OpethianSoul said:
Procrastination is like masturbation. It's fun, until you realize you're fucking yourself.
ffanatic
Pleonexian Antigenesis
I had to in Health class a few years back. I didn't really work, but I'm not sure if I was doing it right. I mean, the instructions were very vague.
changso
Neverending dreamer...
"2. The cause of suffering is desire."
The way I figure it, desire isn't the cause of suffering, it's quite the opposite. Progression isn't possible without desire. How can we say no to war without desiring Peace? How can we walk without desiring it? Knowing ourself frustrated, fearful, segragated, how can we attain Compassion, love, harmony, unity without desiring it? I mean, someone come and say me: "you can have this or that" I'll chose "this" or "that" according to my desires without needing one or the other necessarily. You wouldn't post in this very topic or on organized religion if you weren't desiring to bring some light in delusionnate minds or whatever. You see, desire is the beginning of all creations...the alpha.
On the other hand, I would say that needing something is the cause of suffering. When you NEED something, you're fearing what will eventually happens if you don't have it. In that case, you are so displeased with the situations and the fears eventually becomes anger...anger becomes suffering.
The way I figure it, desire isn't the cause of suffering, it's quite the opposite. Progression isn't possible without desire. How can we say no to war without desiring Peace? How can we walk without desiring it? Knowing ourself frustrated, fearful, segragated, how can we attain Compassion, love, harmony, unity without desiring it? I mean, someone come and say me: "you can have this or that" I'll chose "this" or "that" according to my desires without needing one or the other necessarily. You wouldn't post in this very topic or on organized religion if you weren't desiring to bring some light in delusionnate minds or whatever. You see, desire is the beginning of all creations...the alpha.
On the other hand, I would say that needing something is the cause of suffering. When you NEED something, you're fearing what will eventually happens if you don't have it. In that case, you are so displeased with the situations and the fears eventually becomes anger...anger becomes suffering.
LadyOfTheSnow
hehehe
bump 
I did it more last night, and now my biggest question is, that feeling that comes from it? It's hard to hold on to, and I often come right out of it...is that normal? Am I supposed to have it longer? Is it supposed to be easy to hold on to?
I did it more last night, and now my biggest question is, that feeling that comes from it? It's hard to hold on to, and I often come right out of it...is that normal? Am I supposed to have it longer? Is it supposed to be easy to hold on to?
changso
Neverending dreamer...
Satori
Destructosaur
Yes, it's not so obvious, so I'll explain it in a more practical way:
- You are disgruntled with your life because you have no money and you have to work a shit job getting crapped on all the time. So you suffer. Why are you suffering? It's because you desire something you do not have, that is more money, a better job, and not getting crapped on all the time. If you were accepting of your situation you would not suffer.
- You are sad because your entire family and your pet fish Goldie was wiped out by a fired. You suffer because you desire for that event to have not occured, and you desire your family and pet to still be alive. If you were accepting of their deaths and didn't desire them to still be alive, you wouldn't suffer.
- Your girlfriend is a raving bitch and it seems the point of her life is to make you miserable, so you suffer. You are suffering because you desire to be with someone who is kind and loving, and you desire to not be shit on all the time.
- You are getting old and your health is failing, which reminds you that your life will eventually result in more poor health and then death. You are suffering because you desire to be young and healthy and you desire to not die.
Can you think of a situation in which that sense of discontentment we have is not rooted in desire? I'm not talking about lacking the necessities of life, of course if you are starving or being tortured you will suffer physically, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking only about psychological suffering.
We don't have to really try to attain compassion, love, unity, they are there already, it's just that our inherent selfishness (egocentricism) and rampant desires keep us from seeing it. These feelings arise naturally when we stop worrying about getting ahead in life, when we stop being jealous of others who have more, when we stop trying to attain happiness by the perpetual feeding of desires (which doesn't work).
Another example is that my older relatives are now getting sick and diseased and dying off. I don't want them to die, but when they do I will be accepting of it, I won't let my unfulfilled desire for them to live on to make me unhappy, and I won't allow the reminder of my own mortality and my desire to live make me unhappy.
Satori
Ok, let's take a few examples.changso said:
- You are disgruntled with your life because you have no money and you have to work a shit job getting crapped on all the time. So you suffer. Why are you suffering? It's because you desire something you do not have, that is more money, a better job, and not getting crapped on all the time. If you were accepting of your situation you would not suffer.
- You are sad because your entire family and your pet fish Goldie was wiped out by a fired. You suffer because you desire for that event to have not occured, and you desire your family and pet to still be alive. If you were accepting of their deaths and didn't desire them to still be alive, you wouldn't suffer.
- Your girlfriend is a raving bitch and it seems the point of her life is to make you miserable, so you suffer. You are suffering because you desire to be with someone who is kind and loving, and you desire to not be shit on all the time.
- You are getting old and your health is failing, which reminds you that your life will eventually result in more poor health and then death. You are suffering because you desire to be young and healthy and you desire to not die.
Can you think of a situation in which that sense of discontentment we have is not rooted in desire? I'm not talking about lacking the necessities of life, of course if you are starving or being tortured you will suffer physically, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking only about psychological suffering.
Happiness isn't possible with rampant desire leading you. Feeding one's desire does not lead to happiness, it merely raises the bar on what it takes to make you happy, that's why wealth does not buy contentment, in fact, I've read something recently that people who win the lottery are often more dissatisfied in with their lives than before they hit the jackpot.
We can't, but we shouldn't let the desire for peace make us miserable. We should do what we can to keep the peace, but accept it when our efforts are unsuccessful.
We can't. Desiring is who we are, it's how we are designed. But that doesn't mean we *have* to be miserable because we always want what we can't have, and because we cling to things which are impermanent. We must desire things, but we don't have to allow the fulfillment of those desires dictate our state of contentment (in most cases, I'm not talking about lacking the necessities of life (food/shelter) or physical pain).
As I said, Buddhism is quite against the grain of how we normally think.
We don't have to really try to attain compassion, love, unity, they are there already, it's just that our inherent selfishness (egocentricism) and rampant desires keep us from seeing it. These feelings arise naturally when we stop worrying about getting ahead in life, when we stop being jealous of others who have more, when we stop trying to attain happiness by the perpetual feeding of desires (which doesn't work).
If you didn't need either one then this is not a desire which is going unfufilled and making you unhappy, so it does not apply.
Granted. However, I don't allow my desire for people to wake up and stop being so egocentric (which his what religion is all about) to dictate my state of happiness. I'm accepting that most people are hoplessly deluded and will live out their lives in the typical American dream fashion of trying to be happy by feeding the beast of desire, and by clinging to whacked notions of immortality and a blissful enternal afterlife. I accept reality as it is, but that doesn't mean that I should not try to improve upon it. I hope you see the subtlety of what I'm saying here.
Another example is that my older relatives are now getting sick and diseased and dying off. I don't want them to die, but when they do I will be accepting of it, I won't let my unfulfilled desire for them to live on to make me unhappy, and I won't allow the reminder of my own mortality and my desire to live make me unhappy.
Yes, it's who we fundamentally are, and it's what animals are, and we cannot change that. What we can change however is our degree of acceptance of things by learning to accept things as they are and not allowing our desire for them to be different to make us discontent. That's Buddhism. It's actually much deeper than this, I'm completely leaving out that the root of desire is the illusory notion of a segregated ego. It gets really deep, but never kooky, never illogical, never impractical, always grounded in reason (imo).
That's a perfectly valid way of looking at it. However, I would add, that people often suffer as a result of desires which *aren't* necessities, aren't needed. My sister is currently suffering because she has very little money, but does she need money? No. She just wants it. She has plenty to eat and shelter, she is taken care of by her husband, she has nothing to worry about or need for, but still she is suffering because she can't "buy things". Anger is also rooted in desire, which itself is rooted in the sense of a segregated ego.
Satori
changso
Neverending dreamer...
Agreed with all you said Satori. Thanks for elaborating in such a meticulous and comprehensive way...
Satori
Destructosaur
Wow, thanks man! I thought you would disagree some more. Buddhism is not something that sits well with very many people, particularly religious people because it is so against the grain of how they think (as immortal egos living inside their heads with their only shot at happiness steming from the innate need to kiss the ass of some fictional dicator for the protection of their beloved ego which is impermanent and, like most conceptualizations, an illusion of the senses).
Peace,
Satori
Peace,
Satori
Satori
Destructosaur
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of Teachers, elders or wise men.
Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and live up to it."
- Siddartha Gautama (The Buddha)
Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and live up to it."
- Siddartha Gautama (The Buddha)
Satori
Destructosaur
If anyone is into artsy movies...
I saw a movie this week, now out on video here in Toronto, a new release, called Enlightment Guaranteed. It's about 2 brothers who go to Japan and stay in a Zen monastery. It's a German movie, and it's subtitled. I thought it was fucking brilliant. It's funny, and yet very profound.
Peace.
Satori
I saw a movie this week, now out on video here in Toronto, a new release, called Enlightment Guaranteed. It's about 2 brothers who go to Japan and stay in a Zen monastery. It's a German movie, and it's subtitled. I thought it was fucking brilliant. It's funny, and yet very profound.
Peace.
Satori
Satori
Destructosaur
nemesis_outlawed said:
Hey man, I'll answer your questions on Monday. Sorry I overlooked it, I got caught up in all the war bullshit, hhehe
Satori
changso
Neverending dreamer...
I've been thinking about fear latetly and its implications...I would like to ask you a question Satori.
Do you think that fear can sometimes be justified?
ex:
A person purchase a car thinking: "Heck I'm gonna find a job soon so I don't have to fear, I'll have the money in time".
An activist go in war wanting to help wounded people: "I don't have to fear, bombs will not hurt me"
Such behavior can obviously leads to a new situation which may be highly displeasant for those people.
As you see it, is there an alternative to fear?
Do you think that fear can sometimes be justified?
ex:
A person purchase a car thinking: "Heck I'm gonna find a job soon so I don't have to fear, I'll have the money in time".
An activist go in war wanting to help wounded people: "I don't have to fear, bombs will not hurt me"
Such behavior can obviously leads to a new situation which may be highly displeasant for those people.
As you see it, is there an alternative to fear?
Gleemonex
Keeps you happy, happy!
Satori said:
sure, that's all really logical and jolly. but it is so easy to come to a logical conclusion, after careful observation and analysis.. and it might still be wrong. Our lives are based on experience and perception, and as i´ve even read in one of your posts a while back, we only perceive reality, thus we don´t really know what reality is like, because we are confined to our perception of it. then, even if we do analyse and observe something carefully, we might be missing an important factor in the matter, and thus come to a "wrong" conclusion. not that anything IS wrong, i mean, the conclusion is right according to our perception. but there are so many conclusions, and so many factors to consider, that we will never be able to include them all.
Sorry, that quote just made me think of that because.. well, ok, i admit i am not highly versed in Buddism, but from what i´ve tried to understand, the quote isn´t really all that "Buddistic". Still, written by the bloke himself, how can it not hehe.
Ah what i´m trying to say here is, that even if i agree with it, or maybe because i agree with it, it seems to me to be one of those things that i always belived were "logical and right" but find out through something like Buddism that it isn´t "right".
But then again, that's only a conclusion i come to after using my logics, which again is based on my previous experience and knowledge, thus making it very likely to be wrong, seeing as i´m just missing one piece of the pussle.
Yes Satori, i´ll wait patiently for you to show me the error of my ways.
Belial
Rainbow Demon
Belial
Rainbow Demon
Satori said:
All this time I thought your handle was derrived from the word "satire", something you seem to enjoy a lot.
changso
Neverending dreamer...
Gleemonex said:
That's why a true master will deliberately admit he's ignorant...only by admitting that, wisdom can be possible...
I'm not Satori, but that's the way I figure it
Belial
Rainbow Demon
One could also say that true ignorance stems from the making of assumptions about what we do not know, rather than admitting ignorance.
Similar threads
