Heathens?
- Thread starter Borealis-
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KRaEzTaIuRmED
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- Sep 30, 2005
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Come on now, not returning to prison after being given short leave, hijacking a car and getting a "AG-3 assault rifle, 700 rounds of ammunition, a number of smaller weapons, a handheld GPS system, communications systems, a PC, military uniforms, a bullet proof vest, and camouflage clothes" is the move of an intelligent man. His level of thinking soars above us so much Erik that he must be kept in prison .Erik Tiwaz said:
Mortyr
Mortyr
Varg describes everything that's not pagan and medieval as my pals behaviour. His views are very narrow and ignorant. In his mind everyone who headbangs is a my pals who does my pals behaviour, everyone who does dru.gs is a my pals with niggerbehaviour. (Disclaimer: I do not support dr.ugs or anything).Erik Tiwaz said:
LifeDepraved
My soul got a crack
Agnostic is the way to go...you never know if something is out there. Not saying there's a "Christian God", but I don't think we just came from nothing. That's my two cents.
NP: Pestilence - Consvming Impvlse
NP: Pestilence - Consvming Impvlse
KRaEzTaIuRmED
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It's only really because we're that cool.Seraphim Belial said:BTB I'm thinking about becoming a regular here, so...yeah...hello
Krigloch the Furious
Pants full of poo
Zephyrus
Tyrants and Slaves
darcy
Member
I've found the pagan roots of Borknagar very inspiring, and also quite mature in their approach... good stuff!
Øystein G. Brun;5365145 said:
Now this is really an interesting (half-forgotten) thread ... i have followed Borknagar since day one - or at least since the release of their self-titled first album - and i have always wondered about the "bands" or more precisely Öysteins stance in this questions. He has never been outspoken about these things, more hinted them, which is really admirable in a scene where all these religious or anti-religious often is sublimly in-your-face-outspoken. Studying Öysteins lyrics might perhaps give some clues, but i have not always been sure - and still am not - wther the use of the term "gods" (when it appears) should be understood metaphorical or litteraly as the gods of our pre-christian culture and spirituality.
During the 90's i was myself active in swedish equivalent to Bifrost, namely Sveriges Asatrosamfund, but are nowadays more close to Nätverket Forn Sed. I (we) work(ed) hard to wash away the "nazi"-stamp that sometimes - and in some peoples minds - goes with this way of pagan life, and I think that in Sweden the pagan movement has been pretty succesful, at least Sveriges Asatrosamfund.
til árs ok fridar, Öystein
Det Som Engang Var
Viking Bastard
Öystein, Asgeir, Mr.V, Erik, anybody. I know you said you'd have to let the other guys speak for themselves but I can't talk to Simen...please tell me that he isn't a Christian? I heard it somewhere and if it's true it would just break my fucking heart.
Undefined
Indefinite Entity
Det Som Engang Var
Viking Bastard
Undefined
Indefinite Entity
I don't see how his personal beliefs:A) are anyone's business.
B) should subject him to being judged/should change someone's perception of him.
C) make any difference, seeing as whether he is a jew, muslim or a christian has no bearing whatsoever on how he sings.
Det Som Engang Var
Viking Bastard
I (we) work(ed) hard to wash away the "nazi"-stamp that sometimes - and in some peoples minds - goes with this way of pagan life, and I think that in Sweden the pagan movement has been pretty succesful, at least Sveriges Asatrosamfund.
til árs ok fridar, Öystein
It's sad, but unfortunately it's not just a connection with Nazism. There are a lot of white supremacist groups out there and the sexy thing to do is to trace Scandinavian (not Finnish, usually...) or German ancestry. I was reading a couple of years ago about these skinheads, and they'd have viking games, like hammer toss, etc.
It also goes back to the early black metal scene being identified with anti-christian, racist bands. The paganism has a lot of... nationalist ring to it, for a lot of people.
I'm not saying pagan = racist at all, just that in context to right-wing nationalism and grassroots white supremacy, it has a lot of resonance for people. So when people identify it with paganism, it's an unflattering comparison that has some element of truth associated with it.
That paganism to a lot of people somehow represent a "pure" way of life - pure variously interpreted as "not-christian" or even "aryan"/"germanic" - is no news. Even though i have always found the "ethnic" discussion more relevant for the anglo-american territory of the world, every scandinavian knows that there are pleanty of people also in Europa/Scandinavia that makes these identifications. And they are, of course, entitled to their opinions, but must be prepared for having their world view vehemently challenged, by people who feel more connected with the heathen ways of life from the point of spirituality, more then any "ethnic" or "racial" standpoint whatsoever.
Then it could of course be argued, that the racist interpretation of paganism is somehow equal or even better then the "non-racist". And from there on, at least for me, i have been forced to move the debate over to the academic field and the wide scope of research on this subject, and more or less try to prove (as many before propably also has done) the absurd connection between Pre-Christian Scandinavian Faith and Modern World Racism. Of course, wellfounded research may count for a little when arguing with a heathen nazi (Varg dismissed/dismisses academic research as utter bullshit when interpreting norse myths). But I think it still one of the best ways to fight this, beside the obviously humanistic reasons. Some of the older crap i wrote on this subject has found its way to being published on the internet, unfortunatly, because its a long time ago i wrote it and these text is in dire need of updating...
I'm not sure i properly understood your last comment in the quote above. Could you expand on that?
That paganism to a lot of people somehow represent a "pure" way of life - pure variously interpreted as "not-christian" or even "aryan"/"germanic" - is no news. Even though i have always found the "ethnic" discussion more relevant for the anglo-american territory of the world, every scandinavian knows that there are pleanty of people also in Europa/Scandinavia that makes these identifications. And they are, of course, entitled to their opinions, but must be prepared for having their world view vehemently challenged, by people who feel more connected with the heathen ways of life from the point of spirituality, more then any "ethnic" or "racial" standpoint whatsoever.
Then it could of course be argued, that the racist interpretation of paganism is somehow equal or even better then the "non-racist". And from there on, at least for me, i have been forced to move the debate over to the academic field and the wide scope of research on this subject, and more or less try to prove (as many before propably also has done) the absurd connection between Pre-Christian Scandinavian Faith and Modern World Racism. Of course, wellfounded research may count for a little when arguing with a heathen nazi (Varg dismissed/dismisses academic research as utter bullshit when interpreting norse myths). But I think it still one of the best ways to fight this, beside the obviously humanistic reasons. Some of the older crap i wrote on this subject has found its way to being published on the internet, unfortunatly, because its a long time ago i wrote it and these text is in dire need of updating...
I'm not sure i properly understood your last comment in the quote above. Could you expand on that?
Oh, it was just a reiteration of my general point, that when people say they are wary of paganism due to the perceived association with white supremacy, it's because, unfortunately, loonies, (like Varg!) have made that association have some truth to it (in that there are crazy people claiming that being a Viking makes you superior to non-white people).
And you're right that it has a great salience in the Anglo-American context; I would venture it would have the same appeal for anti-immigrant youth in Europe. I personally find it interesting that people appropriate religious symbols and rhetoric that have nothing to do with their own modern political context and turn them into elements of nationalist ideology. =)
