spaffe
Geisterglut
Erik said:
yes he was voted that's true, but that's not what i meant, he abolished democracy later on, that's what i was refering to.
"Holocaust and WW2 Fatigue"
- Thread starter JayKeeley
- Start date
yes he was voted that's true, but that's not what i meant, he abolished democracy later on, that's what i was refering to.
Erik
New Metal Member
You're likely right when you say that Japan wouldn't have surrendered as easily if the USA bombed actual military targets instead of millions of civilians, but to say the least, it was a dishonourable act on part of America. Civilians aren't really supposed to suffer in wars they didn't start yet the US feels totally comfortable with nuking entire cities for the sake of a quick win... But when a couple of thousand Americans die there's no fucking end to the whining about axes of evil and weapons of mass destruction and fuck knows what.Dreamlord said:
Of course noone has a sense of honour anymore anyway...
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
Eh, I think the 9/11 craze has died down quite a bit, and will continue to do so until it is forgotten like so many other tragedies. Not as much as overseas ones mind you, but the short attention span culture will consume the memory soon enough.
I don't live on the east coast though, the general Californian attitude is that anywhere outside of this state might as well be on Mars. Could be different, especially in NYC. JayKeeley...?
I don't live on the east coast though, the general Californian attitude is that anywhere outside of this state might as well be on Mars. Could be different, especially in NYC. JayKeeley...?
ChiefB
The Truth Seeker
The key question we need to ask ourselves is: 'What and who the Memorial will service?'
The immediate answer to this question is not simply six Million innocent lives but six Million Jewish lives. Germany and the World are constantly reminded of the Jewish Genocide that occured during the WW2 but we never hear about the million UK/Aussie servicemen that died building the infamous River Kwai Bridge or the masses of villagers that were wiped out by the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot, or even the Totsies being wiped out in Africa; we can even take ths further and examine modern genocides during the 1990's in Bosnia and Serbia, just under 10 Million people were slaughtered in ethnic cleansing.
The world we live in is democratised into three camps - Jews, Christians and other religions. The Jewish 'community at large' have an extremely powerful vocal outlet via the US senate and because of the 'extreme' allegiance between the US and Israel the world has to endure whatever is in the best interest of Jewish thought or ideals. This is further propagated by the US insistance of standing behind every single Israeli decision. Now, because of this 'influence' the fact that six Million Jews died will always be remembered by the World, simply because of their vocal outlet. If Cambodians or Bosnians had that kind of outlet do you not think that we would understand the true nature of Genocide and the devastating effect it has on us as Human Beings. These plights are only raised and discussed through outlets such as 'National Geographic' and lets face facts: how many people out there are even aware that a Genocide took place after WW2 and is still happening as we speak today?
Today, Germany is still carrying that burden on its shoulders for crimes committed against the Jews, a crime committed over 50 years ago. They have paid their price for the war and they should not be asked to carry on building unnecessary memorials that simply service ONE particular group of people that perished during WW2. The Death Camps are the memorials and that is ENOUGH. We don't need any more Memorials to remind us of the war because there are enough books and fucking Oscar nominated films about the subject.
Regarding the Atom Bomb: The Smithsonian Institute has been criticised recently over its recent memorial of the Enola Gay. That memorial mentions nothing about the devastation of those two atom bombs. The memorial has been sugar coated to provide American patriotism during these difficult times. There is nothing patriotic about the Enola Gay, it is simply a Weapon of Mass Destruction that killed millions of Japanese people. A fact that the Smithsonian forgot to mention. How can museums teach people about the negative effects of warfare if they simply pander to patriotism?
On a final note: We may be at the pinnacle of our evolutionary development but we are still running on a rudimentary primordial instinct.
The immediate answer to this question is not simply six Million innocent lives but six Million Jewish lives. Germany and the World are constantly reminded of the Jewish Genocide that occured during the WW2 but we never hear about the million UK/Aussie servicemen that died building the infamous River Kwai Bridge or the masses of villagers that were wiped out by the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot, or even the Totsies being wiped out in Africa; we can even take ths further and examine modern genocides during the 1990's in Bosnia and Serbia, just under 10 Million people were slaughtered in ethnic cleansing.
The world we live in is democratised into three camps - Jews, Christians and other religions. The Jewish 'community at large' have an extremely powerful vocal outlet via the US senate and because of the 'extreme' allegiance between the US and Israel the world has to endure whatever is in the best interest of Jewish thought or ideals. This is further propagated by the US insistance of standing behind every single Israeli decision. Now, because of this 'influence' the fact that six Million Jews died will always be remembered by the World, simply because of their vocal outlet. If Cambodians or Bosnians had that kind of outlet do you not think that we would understand the true nature of Genocide and the devastating effect it has on us as Human Beings. These plights are only raised and discussed through outlets such as 'National Geographic' and lets face facts: how many people out there are even aware that a Genocide took place after WW2 and is still happening as we speak today?
Today, Germany is still carrying that burden on its shoulders for crimes committed against the Jews, a crime committed over 50 years ago. They have paid their price for the war and they should not be asked to carry on building unnecessary memorials that simply service ONE particular group of people that perished during WW2. The Death Camps are the memorials and that is ENOUGH. We don't need any more Memorials to remind us of the war because there are enough books and fucking Oscar nominated films about the subject.
Regarding the Atom Bomb: The Smithsonian Institute has been criticised recently over its recent memorial of the Enola Gay. That memorial mentions nothing about the devastation of those two atom bombs. The memorial has been sugar coated to provide American patriotism during these difficult times. There is nothing patriotic about the Enola Gay, it is simply a Weapon of Mass Destruction that killed millions of Japanese people. A fact that the Smithsonian forgot to mention. How can museums teach people about the negative effects of warfare if they simply pander to patriotism?
On a final note: We may be at the pinnacle of our evolutionary development but we are still running on a rudimentary primordial instinct.
I agree indeed, also add Hiroshima/Nagasaki as noticed below.JayKeeley said:
well, this war is still 'recent', I mean, time is also necessary to ease the wounds as many pple who lived these events are still alive nowadays, in a couple of generations the things will be for sure seen differently.JayKeeley said:
(Anyhow, and about dictators, they never appear just by pure hasard, but in times and situations that are favourable for them, as the societies have a need for some deeper or radical changes...)
Eh, in that case, any Japanese city would have been deemed a potential military target. Even Tokyo would have been viable with this logic since that's where the Emperor would have been housed, but the death of civillians would have been too large to play down. And you realize that the effects of radiation fallout is still evident, right? These people are paying for that attack even today.Dreamlord said:
J.
Old Fart
For one thing, the US of today is a totally different country than it was in the 40's.Erik said:
In some ways, I agree that it was dishonorable, but lets be serious, we're not talking about ninjas or samurais. Like I said "All's fair in love and war." As cold and dishonorable as it sounds, it is true.
I totally agree about civilians. They have no part in a war, but are often dragged into them by their leadership, and are seem as collateral damage. Lets not forget about the civilians that died at Pearl Harbor. It was not only military personnel.
In the case of the nukes, I'm sure Truman was acting out of rage, instead of assessing all of the global impacts his decision carried. Still, I believe he saw it as a necessary evil, and it worked. And the bombs didn't kill "millions". Estimates vary, but most seem to agree that both bombs combined killed 200,000 people, both civilian and military.
Japan is still "whining" to this day about the bombs, and that was 60 years ago. September 11th was just 2 years ago.
Pearl Harbor and Sept 11th do have something in common. Both happened because the US was supporting an enemy of the aggressor. In neither case was the US the aggressor. To me, that is very dishonorable and cowardly) of both Al Quaeda and Japan.
Black Winter Day
Member
If anything, the second round in the Gulf has tarnished the memory of 9/11 only serving to speed up the forgetfulness of the actual tragedy. In other words, it's been overshadowed a little by Bush's knee-jerk reaction warmongering.NAD said:
The one thing that impresses me is how vocal New Yorkers are in their opinions. Even though they were the main victims of 9/11, there is an air of hesitancy in accepting Bush's decision to invade Iraq. Reminds me of the British to be honest - the ability to keep your wits about you, otherwise Belfast would have been carpet bombed back in 1980.
Ahh, bollocks. The US supporting the "enemy of the aggressor" makes them just as much an enemy. So your girlfriend gets raped by some dude while his drunk buddies cheer him on. Aren't they equally as guilty? Aren't you going to wipe them ALL out in other words? *cue Jodi Foster*Dreamlord said:
And for what it's worth, had Al Queda attacked the actual aggressor, Israel, the US would have retliated in just the same capacity. I mean, isn't that evident enough through the simple fact that "Israel" still exists, and "Palestine" is the beeyotch?
Sorry, are you saying that people were impressionable and stupid by voting in the Nazi party? Perhaps so, but I think the German recession through hyperinflation caused that level of desperation, and Hitler showed up at the right time. From what I understand, scholar-like politicians hold him in high regard in respect to his speaking ability. Quite remarkable if you think about how he made the "masterplan" seem so...acceptable.Erik said:
Erik
New Metal Member
Yes, but has it changed for the better? Hmm. Also, you wouldn't really see today's government distancing itself from the nuclear attacks, would you...Dreamlord said:
Yes, that's true nowadays, and fuck this world. Lack of honour/honesty is a fundamental reason to why this world looks as it does.Dreamlord said:
So are we talking about victims of the actual explosions here or also those who died (and probably still die) of various radiation-induced diseases? I should admit I don't really know any numbers off the top of my head, but a lot of people died. 200 000 seems to me to be a bit on the low end side.Dreamlord said:
Are they? I don't see much.Dreamlord said:
Actually, the USA is very much a direct enemy of Al Quaeda (as is Israel.) I don't really see how you could deny that.Dreamlord said:
EDIT: Eeeh, disregard this last bit here. That wasn't a particularly clever thing of me to write, I kind of misunderstood Dreamlord's post.
Erik
New Metal Member
Um, you're right of course, you're not really saying anything that contradicts my original statement. Hitler did some undeniably great things for his country in addition to... all the other things, but he might as well not have kept the promises he made. He was a great at speech and propaganda and that's really all it took to bring him to power. So what I am saying is that people are generally easily impressionable by great politicians (for example) and stupid enough not to learn from historical mistakes.JayKeeley said:
Erik
New Metal Member
OK. If it is dishonourable and cowardly of Japan to launch a preemptive strike on the USA (it's likely that the USA would have gotten more involved in the war and eventually attacked Japan hadn't Japan attacked first, isn't it) then do you think it is as cowardly of the USA to launch a preemptive strike on Iraq and their supposed WMD's?Dreamlorð said:
Also, I seem to remember some country attacking Afghanistan because its regime supported an enemy of this aggressor -- not because the country itself was an enemy.
J.
Old Fart
Very much so. Especially when Hussein wasn't the threat Bush made him out to be.Erik said:
Stupid Pakistan.
Erik
New Metal Member
I took that as if you slightly disagreed with me but well, whatever.JayKeeley said:
Goodie. No hypocrisy warning for you then.Dreamlord said:
NAD
What A Horrible Night To Have A Curse
I so god damn love this picture.
It's funny, but then again I don't see a problem with it like some do, because in the realm of world affairs, yesterday's enemy is today's ally. It's a field of strict rationality, whiehever side will get you ahead at the moment is the proper course to be taken. As harsh as it sounds, it is kill or be killed. I'm just rambling now...
I should have changed my "Perhaps, but..." to "Perhaps, and...". Maybe? Me stupido.Erik said:I took that as if you slightly disagreed with me but well, whatever.
I can't imagine how much more frustrating it must be for the intellectual American to watch his/her own tv news stations and see this bullshit, thinking "who are they trying to kid?".NAD said:
In the UK, it must be diabolical especially when the news stations (such as the BBC) are a little more 'independent', and then Blair leads the country into a war that is portrayed in an even "less-justified" or "less-glamourized" manner.
I wish I had a cable feed to Al-Jazeera.
