Holocaust deniers

[petehis kahn]

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out that common assumptions can be wrong because people repeat things other people say without knowing if they are true or not.

I win the point, because your rebuttal is a non-sequitur.

Yet I have been the one calling for you all to go to your own research from text books and documented evidence such as I have done in my lifetime.

I'd say that if we put your original argument into standard form there would be problems with it anyway and there would certainly be problems with it anyway, I mean this argument is correct

If I am an Australian Then I am a Kangaroo
I am an Australian
-------------------
Therefore I am a kangaroo.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with the logic of the argument, it is certainly not valid for I am not a Kangaroo.

and no you win nothing, didnt you read the argument from fallacy that states that even if an argument is a fallacy it must be still argued on its merits. As it was just shown an argument being logical does not make it right, nor does an argument being illogical make it wrong

If I am a human then I am a mammal
I am a mammal
--------------------
I am a human

This argument is incorrect but its conclusion is correct, sure the reason I got it was by pure luck.... but am are you going to tell me that I am not a human

P.S

Would you be so kind as to tell me the logical fallacy I commited, thanks

P.P.S

I guess I win because you commited the logical fallacy of the argument from fallacy, but that would make you win.... and so on forever. Arguments are not decided on logical fallacys.

EDIT

Unless you mean it in an absurdist sense, but that would be you totally misusing a word so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that

and extra edit

arguments fron analogy are not valid, I mean the christian fundies try it with intelligent design but they do not just hold up... so I mean your original argument in itself is not all that good now is it

 

[petehis kahn]

right you guys are playing the denier tactic of arguing silly points like the logic of arguments and ignoring the proof so before we move on, i would like everyone in that camp to explain the following bits of infomation keeping in mind they were all seized just days after war end or intercepted before the war ended.

Subject: Report to the Führer about fight against gangs
Report No. 51
Southern Russia, Ukraine, Bialystok
Successes in fight against gangs from 1st October until 1st December 1942

1.) Bandits:
a) Casualties in fights (x)
August September October November total
227 381 427 302 1337
b) Prisoners executed immediately
125 282 87 243 737
c) Prisoners executed after thorough interrogation
2100 1400 1596 2731 7828
2.) Bandit accomplices and suspects
a) Arrested
1342 3078 8337 3795 16553
b) Executed
1198 3020 6333 3706 14257
c) Jews executed
31246 165282 95735 70948 363211
3.) Turncoats thanks to German propaganda
21 14 42 63 140

(x) The number of casualties are to be considered much higher,
Because the Russians carry off their fallen or bury them immediately.

ALERT THIS DOCUMENT WAS INTERCEPTED BEFORE WARS END

It gives deaths for 1942 as L (Lublin Majdanek) 24,733, B (Belzec): 434,508, S (Sobibor) 101,370, T (Treblinka) 713,555 for a total Jewish victims of Aktion Reinhard in 1942 as 1,274,166.

next the jagar report

The Commander of
the security police and
the SD
Einsatzkommando 3

Kauen [Kaunas],

1 December 1941

--------------------------
|Secret Reich Business! | 5 copies
-------------------------- 4th copy

Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
up to 1 December 1941

Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on
2 July 1941.

(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the
Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in
Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)

On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by
Lithuanian partisans:

4.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
6.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII Jews 2,514

Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of
SS-Obersturmfuhrer Hamman and 8-10 reliable men from the
Einsatzkommando. the following actions were conducted in cooperation
with Lithuanian partisans:

7.7.41 Mariampole Jews 32
8.7.41 Mariampole 14 Jews, 5 Comm. officials 19
8.7.41 Girkalinei Comm. oficcials 6
9.7.41 Wendziogala 32 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
(f.), 2 Lithuanian Comm., 1
Russian Comm. 38
9.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 21 Jews, 3 Jewesses 24
14.7.41 Mariampole 21 Jews, 1 Russ., 9 Lith. Comm. 31
17.7.41 Babtei 8 Comm. officals (inc. 6 Jews) 8
18.7.41 Mariampole 39 Jews, 14 Jewesses 53
19.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
Comm., 2 Comm. Lithuanians (f.),
1 German Comm. 26
21.7.41 Panevezys 59 Jews, 11 Jewesses, 1
Lithuanian (f.), 1 Pole, 22 Lith.
Comm., 9 Russ. Comm. 103
22.7.41 Panevezys 1 Jew 1
23.7.41 Kedainiai 83 Jews, 12 Jewesses, 14 Russ.
Comm., 15 Lith. Comm., 1 Russ.
O-Politruk 125
25.7.41 Mariampole 90 Jews, 13 Jewesses 103
28.7.41 Panevezys 234 Jews, 15 Jewesses, 19 Russ.
Comm., 20 Lith. Comm. 288

Total carried forward 3,384

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sheet 2
Total carried over 3,384

29.7.41 Rasainiai 254 Jews, 3 Lith. Comm. 257
30.7.41 Agriogala 27 Jews, 11 Lith. Comm. 38
31.7.41 Utena 235 Jews, 16 Jewesses, 4 Lith.
Comm., 1 robber/murderer 256
31.7.41 Wendziogala 13 Jews, 2 murderers 15
1.8.41 Ukmerge 254 Jews, 42 Jewesses, 1 Pol.
Comm., 2 Lith. NKVD agents, 1
mayor of Jonava who gave order
to set fire to Jonava 300
2.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 170 Jews, 1 US Jewess, 33 Jewesses,
4 Lith. Comm. 209
4.8.41 Panevezys 362 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 5 Russ. Comm.,
14 Lith. Comm. 422
5.8.41 Rasainiai 213 Jews, 66 Jewesses 279
7.8.41 Uteba 483 Jews, 87 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian
(robber of corpses of German soldiers)571
8.8.41 Ukmerge 620 Jews, 82 Jewesses 702
9.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 484 Jews, 50 Jewesses 534
11.8.41 Panevezys 450 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 1 Lith. 1 Russ. 500
13.8.41 Alytus 617 Jews, 100 Jewesses, 1 criminal 719
14.8.41 Jonava 497 Jews, 55 Jewesses 552
15-16.8.41 Rokiskis 3,200 Jews, Jewesses, and J. Children,
5 Lith. Comm., 1 Pole, 1 partisan 3207
9-16.8.41 Rassainiai 294 Jewesses, 4 Jewish children 298
27.6-14.8.41 Rokiskis 493 Jews, 432 Russians, 56 Lithuanians
(all active communists) 981
18.8.41 Kauen-Fort IV 689 Jews, 402 Jewesses, 1 Pole (f.),
711 Jewish intellectuals from Ghetto
in reprisal for sabotage action 1,812
19.8.41 Ukmerge 298 Jews, 255 Jewesses, 1 Politruk,
88 Jewish children, 1 Russ. Comm. 645
22.8.41 Dunaburg 3 Russ. Comm., 5 Latvian, incl. 1
murderer, 1 Russ. Guardsman, 3 Poles,
3 gypsies (m.), 1 gypsy (f.), 1 gypsy
child, 1 Jew, 1 Jewess, 1 Armenian
(m.), 2 Politruks (prison inspection
in Dunanburg 21


Total carried forward 16,152
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sheet 3
Total carried forward 16,152

22.8.41 Aglona Mentally sick: 269 men, 227 women,
48 children 544
23.8.41 Panevezys 1,312 Jews, 4,602 Jewesses, 1,609
Jewish children 7,523
18-22.8.41 Kreis Rasainiai 466 Jews, 440 Jewesses, 1,020
Jewish children 1,926
25.8.41 Obeliai 112 Jews, 627 Jewesses, 421
Jewish children 1,160
25-26.8.41 Seduva 230 Jews, 275 Jewesses, 159
Jewish children 664
26.8.41 Zarasai 767 Jews, 1,113 Jewesses, 1 Lith.
Comm., 687 Jewish children, 1 Russ.
Comm. (f.) 2,569
28.8.41 Pasvalys 402 Jews, 738 Jewesses, 209
Jewish children 1,349
26.8.41 Kaisiadorys All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
children 1,911
27.8.41 Prienai All Jews, Jewesses, and Jewish
Children 1,078
27.8.41 Dagda and 212 Jews, 4 Russ. POW's 216
Kraslawa
27.8.41 Joniskia 47 Jews, 165 Jewesses, 143
Jewish children 355
28.8.41 Wilkia 76 Jews, 192 Jewesses, 134
Jewish children 402
28.8.41 Kedainiai 710 Jews, 767 Jewesses, 599
Jewish children 2,076
29.8.41 Rumsiskis and 20 Jews, 567 Jewesses, 197
Ziezmariai Jewish children 784
29.8.41 Utena and 582 Jews, 1,731 Jewesses, 1,469
Moletai Jewish children 3,782
13-31.8.41 Alytus and
environs 233 Jews 233

1.9.41 Mariampole 1,763 Jews, 1,812 Jewesses, 1,404
Jewish children, 109 mentally sick,
1 German subject (f.), married to a
Jew, 1 Russian (f.) 5090

Total carried over 47,814
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sheet 4
Total carried over 47,814

28.8-2.9.41 Darsuniskis 10 Jews, 69 Jewesses, 20
Jewish children 99
Carliava 73 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 61
Jewish children 247
Jonava 112 Jews, 1,200 Jewesses, 244
Jewish children 1,556
Petrasiunai 30 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 23
Jewish children 125
Jesuas 26 Jews, 72 Jewesses, 46
Jewish children 144
Ariogala 207 Jews, 260 Jewesses, 195
Jewish children 662
Jasvainai 86 Jews, 110 Jewesses, 86
Jewish children 282
Babtei 20 Jews, 41 Jewesses, 22
Jewish children 83
Wenziogala 42 Jews, 113 Jewesses, 97
Jewish children 252
Krakes 448 Jews, 476 Jewesses, 97
Jewish children 1,125
4.9.41 Pravenischkis 247 Jews, 6 Jewesses 253
Cekiske 22 Jews, 64 Jewesses, 60
Jewish children 146
Seredsius 6 Jews, 61 Jewesses, 126
Jewish children 193
Velinona 2 Jews, 71 Jewesses, 86
Jewish children 159
Zapiskis 47 Jews, 118 Jewesses, 13
Jewish children 178
5.9.41 Ukmerge 1,123 Jews, 1,849 Jewesses, 1,737
Jewish children 4,709
25.8-6.9.41 Mopping up in: 16 Jews, 412 Jewesses, 415
Rasainiai Jewish children 843
Georgenburg all Jews, all Jewesses, all
Jewish children 412
9.9.41 Alytus 287 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 352
Jewish children 1,279
9.9.41 Butrimonys 67 Jews, 370 Jewesses, 303
Jewish children 740
10.9.41 Merkine 223 Jews, 640 Jewesses, 276
Jewish children 854
10.9.41 Varena 541 Jews, 141 Jewesses, 149
Jewish children 831
11.9.41 Leipalingis 60 Jews, 70 Jewesses, 25
Jewish children 155
11.9.41 Seirijai 229 Jews, 384 Jewesses, 340
Jewish children 953
12.9.41 Simnas 68 Jews, 197 Jewesses, 149
Jewish children 414
11-12.9.41 Uzusalis Reprisal against inhabitants who
fed Russ. partisans; some in
possesion of weapons 43
26.9.41 Kauen-F.IV 412 Jews, 615 Jewesses, 581
Jewish children (sick and
suspected epidemic cases) 1,608

Total carries over 66,159
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheet 5
Total carried over 66,159

2.10.41 Zagare 633 Jews, 1,107 Jewesses, 496
Jewish children (as these Jews were
being led away a mutiny rose, which
was however immediately put down;
150 Jews were shot immediately; 7
partisans wounded) 2,236
4.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 315 Jews, 712 Jewesses, 818
Jewish children (reprisal after
German police officer shot in ghetto) 1,845
29.10.41 Kauen-F.IX 2,007 Jews, 2,920 Jewesses, 4,273
Jewish children (mopping up ghetto
of superfluous Jews) 9,200
3.11.41 Lazdijai 485 Jews, 511 Jewesses, 539
Jewish children 1,535
15.11.41 Wilkowiski 36 Jews, 48 Jewesses, 31
Jewish children 115
25.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 1,159 Jews, 1,600 Jewesses, 175
Jewish children (resettlers from
Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt am main) 2,934
29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 693 Jews, 1,155 Jewesses, 152
Jewish children (resettlers from
from Vienna and Breslau) 2,000
29.11.41 Kauen-F.IX 17 Jews, 1 Jewess, for contravention
of ghetto law, 1 Reichs German who
converted to the Jewish faith and
attended rabbinical school, then 15
terrorists from the Kalinin group 34

EK 3 detachment in Dunanberg
in the period 13.7-21.8.41: 9,012 Jews, Jewesses and Jewish
children, 573 active Comm. 9,585

EK 3 detachment in Wilna:
12.8-1.9.41 City of Wilna 425 Jews, 19 Jewesses, 8 Comm. (m.),
9 Comm. (f.) 461
2.9.41 City of Wilna 864 Jews, 2,019 Jewesses, 817
Jewish children (sonderaktion because
German soldiers shot at by Jews) 3,700

Total carried forward 99,084
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

sheet 6

Total carried forward 99,804

12.9.41 City of Wilna 993 Jews, 1,670 Jewesses, 771
Jewish children 3,334
17.9.41 City of Wilna 337 Jews, 687 Jewesses, 247
Jewish children and 4 Lith. Comm. 1,271
20.9.41 Nemencing 128 Jews, 176 Jewesses, 99
Jewish children 403
22.9.41 Novo-Wilejka 468 Jews, 495 Jewesses, 196
Jewish children 1,159
24.9.41 Riesa 512 Jews, 744 Jewesses, 511
Jewish children 1,767
25.9.41 Jahiunai 215 Jews, 229 Jewesses, 131
Jewish children 575
27.9.41 Eysisky 989 Jews, 1,636 Jewesses, 821
Jewish children 3,446
30.9.41 Trakai 366 Jews, 483 Jewesses, 597
Jewish children 1,446
4.10.41 City of Wilna 432 Jews, 1,115 Jewesses, 436
Jewish children 1,983
6.10.41 Semiliski 213 Jews, 359 Jewesses, 390
Jewish children 962
9.10.41 Svenciany 1,169 Jews, 1,840 Jewesses, 717
Jewish children 3,726
16.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 507 Jewesses, 257
Jewish children 1,146
21.10.41 City of Wilna 718 Jews, 1,063 Jewesses, 586
Jewish children 2,367
25.10.41 City of Wilna 1,776 Jewesses, 812 Jewish children 2,578
27.10.41 City of Wilna 946 Jews, 184 Jewesses, 73
Jewish children 1,203
30.10.41 City of Wilna 382 Jews, 789 Jewesses, 362
Jewish children 1,553
6.11.41 City of Wilna 340 Jews, 749 Jewesses, 252
Jewish children 1,341
19.11.41 City of Wilna 76 Jews, 77 Jewesses, 18
Jewish children 171
19.11.41 City of Wilna 6 POW's, 8 Poles 14
20.11.41 City of Wilna 3 POW's 3
25.11.41 City of Wilna 9 Jews, 46 Jewesses, 8 Jewish
children, 1 Pole for possesion of arms
and other military equipment 64

EK 3 detachment in Minsk from
28.9-17.10.41:

Pleschnitza 620 Jews, 1,285 Jewesses,
Bischolin 1,126 Jewish children and 19
Scak Comm.
Bober
Uzda 3,050
--------
133,346
Prior to EK 3 taking over security police duties, Jews liquidated
by pogroms and executions (including partisans) 4,000
-----------
Total 137,346

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today I can confirm that our objective, to solve the Jewish problem for
Lithuania, has been achieved by EK 3. In Lithuania there are no more
Jews, apart from Jewish workers and their families.

......

The distance between from the assembly point to the graves was on average
4 to 5 Km.

......


I consider the Jewish action more or less terminated as far as
Einsatzkommando 3 is concerned. Those working Jews and Jewesses still
available are needed urgently and I can envisage that after the winter
this workforce will be required even moe urgently. I am of the view
that the strelization programme of the male worker Jews should be
started immediately so that reproduction is prevented. If despite
sterlization a Jewess becomes pregnant she will be liquidated.


(signed) Jager
SS-Standartenfuhrer

Keep in mind on this one that Leuchter was shown to be at best a poor researcher and terrible witness and at worst an awful liar and therefore his opinion is pretty much void, a so called expert didn't know it took more time to kill lice for example.... what an expert.

Ereignismeldung UdSSR, No. 101, October 2, 1941 (The Good Old Days - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 67):

Einsatzgruppen C
Standort Kiev

In collaboration with the group staff and two Kommandos of Police Regiment South, on 29 and 30 September 1941, Sonderkommando 4a executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev.

Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference, January 20 1942, regarding the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953., Vol. XIII, p. 210]

II. At the beginning of the meeting the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich, reported his appointment by the Reich Marshal [Goering] to service as Commissioner for the preparation of the Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem....

In the course of this final solution of the European Jewish Problem, approximately 11 million Jews are involved. They are distributed among individual countries as follows:
..
A. Original Reich Territory [Altreich] 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
Government General [Nazi occupied Poland] 2,284,000
..
..
The Netherlands 160,800
..
..
Rumania, including Bessarabia 342,000
..
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
..
..
White Russia, excluding Bialystok 446,484
[Many countries deleted for brevity]
TOTAL over 11,000,000

From the U.S. Holocaust Museum: Map from Stahlecker's report entitled "Jewish Executions Carried Out by Einsatzgruppe A" and stamped "Secret Reich Matter." It shows the number of Jews executed in the Baltic States and Belarus in 1941. The legend at the bottom states that "the estimated number of Jews still on hand is 128,000." Estonia is marked as "judenfrei". Held in the Latvian State Historical Archives, Riga

Ok no more pointing out things Jews have done, no more avoiding the issue... I want you to explain each and every bit of evidence I have posted.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Who can be sure that those documents you have provided are not forgeries? I can''t be sure anyway, so I have to use things that seem to be evidently true rather than go on trust.

That is why Speed, Final Product, and me want to concentrate on what we can learn from the present day suffering in the world's largest concentration camp. A subject you seem eager to avoid, Petris Khan.

Various neutral publications mentioned here: http:www.stormfront.org/truth_at_last/holox/d6mrd05.htm
suggest that most Jews emigrated before the war and that 3 million were left in what became German occupied Europe. It is neither more nor less reliable than the evidence that you give, so it seems pointless to continue throwing questionable information at eachother.

The plan on how to exploit the Holocaust for Jewish benefit arguably began even before Hitler came into power. The circumstances were laid for the inevitable consequence of a nationalist leader after WWI and Hitler's war machine was financed by Wall Street bankers. To explain the whole conspiracy theory would take a long time and if anyone is curious they should probably just find it out for themselves.

If the Holocaust hadn't happened, they would have had to invent it.

"The perpetual Holocaust media blitz is routinely used to justify enormous American support for Israel and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli policies, even when they conflict with American interests.

"The sophisticated and well financed Holocaust media campaign is crucially important to the interests of Israel which owes its existence to massive annual subsidies from American taxpayers. As Professor W.D. Rubenstein of Australia has candidly acknowledged 'If the Holocaust can be shown to be a Zionist myth, the strongest of all weapons in Israel's propaganda armory collapses'.

"Jewish history teacher Paula Hyman of Columbia University has observed:'With regard to Israel, the Holocaust may be used to forstall political criticism and suppress debate, it reinforces the sense of Jews as eternally beleaguered people who can rely for their defense only upon themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the Nazis often takes the place of rational argument, and is expected to convince doubters of the legitamacy of current Israeli government policy.'"

Also, "The more evil and satanic the Hitler regime appears, the more noble and justified seems the Allies' cause".
It would bring down Western governments if the Holocaust was exposed as being greatly exaggerated and supported by fraudulent evidence.

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3309

 

[Norsemaiden]

In the interests of getting down to what goes on in a concentration camp in the present day, please consider the following horrific evidence.

http://www.ukar.org/asper/asper01.html

WARNING: CONTAINS GORY IMAGE

The above site refers to Israel soldiers killing Palestinians, including children, and foreigners in Israel to harvest their organs.

Relevant information to add to this is the story of babies being abducted at birth in Ukraine hospitals by the Russian mafia and sold on for their body parts. A reasonable assumption is that these parts go to Israel, based on the link above and based on the Russian mafia being overwhelmingly Jewish.

Two supporting links: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4189558.stm
http:www.theunjustmedia.com/jew organized crime.htm

It is reasonable to assume that the thousands of slaves brought into Israel are sometimes used for organ harvesting. The fact that it is horrible does not outweigh the likelihood that it is happening.

 

[petehis kahn]

The thread is about holocaust denial, if this thread was about Israel policy or whatever then yes perhaps your points would be valid (although very, very questionable), but Israel harvesting the organs of people is not the topic of this thread, the topic of this thread is Holocaust deniers, it is about holocaust denial and your attempts to sidetrack the thread are fairly obvious.

Obviously you do not understand that there exist groups of people who are experts at spotting documents that are forged or interpolated. Take off the top of my head the proof of interpolation in the sources of Flavius Josephus concerning Jesus. How do you think history is done, do you think they just get documents and go... oh yes that’s proof.

I want you to focus only on the proofs I listed and refute them, I would like for you to argue how documents that were intercepted before the end of the war were invented for this so called hoax. Are you saying that?

All the allies including the Soviets invented evidence before the war ended for some plot

If this is the case why have the documents survived as "fakes" for 50 years when this is one of the most heavily studied events and heavily recorded events in world history, is this perhaps a plot as well.

If so how can you explain no denier being able to successfully prove interpolation or document forging, yet on the other hand deniers are proven to document forge quite often, is this also a plot

Now if this is a plot too, why when these evidences are challenged in court are they always found to the side of the historians (I shudder to use the term historian to describe holocaust deniers) actually why is there not one credible historian who questions the holocaust, every historian I have ever known (which is likely to be a lot more than you guys) has been a person who does not accept things and searches for answers, why haven't these historians found anything in 50 + years.

Now for denial to be possible, all these "plots" must be in existence... now tell me what is more likely for all these plots and conspiracies to exist, for all these cover ups in a field that is very concerned about the truth or the holocaust actually did happen as history said.

I personally find the latter to be much more likely.

I will humour you one last time in your attempts to avoid arguing hard fact and answer your so called point on the emigration of Jews from Europe in a moment.

ahaha ok for a laugh, can you please tell me the point of these plots...

It is neither more nor less reliable than the evidence that you give, so it seems pointless to continue throwing questionable information at eachother.

Yeah ok, Historical document v Conspiracy theory... I have refuted basically everything you have listed, you have thrown a lot of rubbish down so I might have missed the odd argument, but you CANNOT refute any of my proof without saying, WHAT IF ITS FAKE..... I have maintained arguments against your claims, yet you have not offered me the same... argue the documents I have listed, find proof that they are false.

If the best arguments you have are what ifs, what does that say for the entire argument of deniers.

 

[petehis kahn]

http://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_last/holox/d6mrd05.htm

The World Almanac of 1938 gives the number of Jews in the world as 16,588,259. But after the war the New York Times, Febuary 22, 1948, placed the number of Jews in the world at a minimum of 15,000,000 and a maximum of 18,000,000. Quite obviously, these figures make it impossible for the number of Jewish war-time casualties to be measured in anything but thousands. Fifteen and a half million in 1938 minus the alleged six million leaves nine million; the New York Times figures would mean, therefore, that the world's Jews produced seven million births, almost doubling their numbers, in the space of ten years. This is patently ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examination_of_Holocaust_denial#Six_million_figure

However, as is typically the case, the evidence given by Holocaust deniers does not stand up to closer scrutiny. In fact, the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 11,266,600. Moreover, it revises its estimate of the World Jewish population in 1939 upwards, to 16,643,120. Thus, according to the 1949 World Almanac the difference between the pre and post war populations is over 5.4 million.

wow thats a bit confusing.... I mean it sounds like deniers like make up lies or something, nah they wouldn't do that would they

ahahha AND they are mixing sources, goodness that wouldn't stand up to academic testing I'm afraid

P.S http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korherr_Report says you are wrong.... Adolf Eichmann even backs me up here.

So are you saying that the Nazis themselves had the total number of jews in europe incorrect

 

[Norsemaiden]

This is very convincing to me. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) were working to help all Jews in the camps during the war. They never mentioned any gas chambers in their 3 volume report, which you can read about here: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2735
They did say everyone was in danger of starving to death because of the Allied bombing.
The original 1946 edition of the report did not call the camps "extermination" or"death" camps, but they expanded the report in 1948 and added a few cursory references to "death camps" after the Nurenberg trials.

The report does not mention such a thing as a "gas chamber".
"It acknowledges that Jews, like so many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence on the subject of "gassings" is ample refutation of the 'Holocaust' legend."

VolIII of the ICRC report deals with the "aid given to the Jewish section of the free population". These Jews were restricted, but allowed to be civilians.

"Without a doubt the most important contribution to a truthful study of the extermination question has been the work of French academic Paul Rassinier. The pre-eminant value of this work lies firstly in the fact that Rassinier actually experienced life in the German concentration camps and also that, as a Socialist intellectual and anti-Nazi, nobody could be less inclined to defend Hitler and National Socialism. Yet, for the sake of justice and historical truth, Rassinier spent the remainder of his post war years until his death in 1966 pursuing research which utterly refuted the Myth of the Six Million and the legend of Nazi diabolism."

Further on this at: http://www.radioislam.org/historia/really/10.htm The reason these facts are not widely known is because they are suppressed.

Any historian who thinks there is something fishy about the holocaust and tries to discover more is not only going to put themself at risk, but also will encounter a lot of disapproval, so obviously they may suspect documents are forged (or not even want to begin to think along those lines) and yet be too scared to attempt to question it. This is why if something is has not been proven to be a fraud, it is not proof that it is genuine either - if it comes from the prosixmilliondied side. However historians would fall over themselves, and be well rewarded, if they can question evidence from the revisionists. So anything they have not refuted about revisionist evidence is consequently very much more reliable. That is logical.

 

[Norsemaiden]

http://wwww.rense.com/general48/ikes.htm Google: ike camps as the link fails. Just remember about the five million Germans who the Americans fenced up out in the open and left to starve until at least a million had died. These people were trying to eat grass roots to survive. It must have been so difficult and tragic that in their position it would be no surprise if every one of them would have rather been shoved into a gas chamber. The Americans in charge of this obcenity would not have cared if the full five million had died then and there. Other holocausts have happened and will continue to happen, but no one will go to jail for questioning them, and none of them will be used as a club to beat people into submission and to allow further atrocities to be committed under the excuse of the perpetrators' past suffering.

If the argument comes down to a case of who do you want to believe: the ones who claim the full six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers (which should not even be a justification for the survivors to form a state which copies, while adding even more brutality to, the actions of those who treated them so abominably), or those who say that this was an exaggeration and no more than one detail of a tragic war that claimed millions of innocent lives all over the world - then it may come down to having to ask yourself: who deserves to be believed? And what are reasonable consequences to us all of that story being the truth?

 

[speed]

http://wwww.rense.com/general48/ikes.htm Google: ike camps as the link fails. Just remember about the five million Germans who the Americans fenced up out in the open and left to starve until at least a million had died. These people were trying to eat grass roots to survive. It must have been so difficult and tragic that in their position it would be no surprise if every one of them would have rather been shoved into a gas chamber. The Americans in charge of this obcenity would not have cared if the full five million had died then and there. Other holocausts have happened and will continue to happen, but no one will go to jail for questioning them, and none of them will be used as a club to beat people into submission and to allow further atrocities to be committed under the excuse of the perpetrators' past suffering.

If the argument comes down to a case of who do you want to believe: the ones who claim the full six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers (which should not even be a justification for the survivors to form a state which copies, while adding even more brutality to, the actions of those who treated them so abominably), or those who say that this was an exaggeration and no more than one detail of a tragic war that claimed millions of innocent lives all over the world - then it may come down to having to ask yourself: who deserves to be believed? And what are reasonable consequences to us all of that story being the truth?

I do know it was very difficult immediate post-WWII in Germany. My Great Grandfather sent his brothers--my great uncles and his nephews/nieces also-- a number of parcels of food, clothing, and money for a few years. And we also have their correspondence--although its in longhand German.

Even weirder in my family history, is the fact my grandfather and his brothers, fought the Nazi's, which included his uncles and cousins, and then sent them these parcels etc after the war.

 

[Hamock]

Who can be sure that those documents you have provided are not forgeries? I can''t be sure anyway, so I have to use things that seem to be evidently true rather than go on trust.

What is this supposed to mean?

 

[Norsemaiden]

What is this supposed to mean?

It means stuff like (that most of you have noticed) the 6 million figure for Jews killed is improbably large. It also means using logic to deduce things: facts like the way the Jewish holocaust has turned from being one of many tragic mass deaths or genocides throughout history to being an iconic event, almost a religion for the west, which we get our noses rubbed into on a regular basis and which has brought obscene benefits to the state of Israel and Jews who exploit the holocaust for financial benefit. Like how the (Jewish) Norman Finklestein frustratedly asked how come there are 4 times the number of Jews claiming to be survivors 50 years later! And that some memoirs are hoaxes (again undisputed). These undisputed facts all make me a skeptic. I am not bowed by the obligation to believe it because it is the law, as many do. Neither am I bound to believe it because most people do and it meets with social approval. According to conventional psychology, most people will believe in the event in the full authorised form simply because it is rare for anyone to break away from peer pressure and say "the emperor has no clothes!"

IS STORMFRONT A HOAX? http:www.whatreallyhappened.com/stormfront.html
If so, then the statistics they give will be referenced by people like me who want to find revisionist evidence for debates - yet I may have been tricked into giving false statistics deliberately published on Stormfront as a result!
My suspicions were aroused when Petris Khan said their stats were not as stated in the almanac.

"So a Whatreallyhappened reader did a DNS search on stormfront.org the supposed top of the heap in anti-Semitic groups, whose existence is cited as grounds for continued funding of various holocaust museums and the passage of draconian 'hate' laws used to silence criticism of Israel."

Do you see what we are up against?!
That's why we have to try and deduce everything, with all this lying and falsifying of evidence. If its something everyone agrees happened, however, then we can use that to work out where the truth might be.

 

[petehis kahn]

I don't think that holocaust historians count every 5-6 million death as gassed either, I am fairly sure it includes people who starved to death or died in any other way caused by the German program.

I mean like I said David Irving himself said probably 4 million died, he just doesn't believed they were gassed (like it makes any difference really, starving them to death is just as horrible) or that Hitler knew about what was really happening

 

[Teh Grimace]

Stormfront is not a "group". Stormfront is a "message board". It in absolutely no way can be considered an "organization". It can, however, be considered a "message board". Stormfront is frequented by groups as diverse as christian Klan members to people who play in NSBM bands. It is not a "group" with an "organized" system of beliefs, it is just a place where anybody can post anything they want to, whether or not the information is agreed upon by everyone who posts there.

Because it is a "message board" and nothing more.

BTW.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Now I realise that Stormfront is a message board, so anyone can put any information on it which is not guaranteed reliable. It could sometimes be deliberately unreliable information put on by people who have an interest in making things get muddled, like I said. Especially bearing in mind the infiltration problem.

 

[infoterror]

I mean like I said David Irving himself said probably 4 million died, he just doesn't believed they were gassed (like it makes any difference really, starving them to death is just as horrible) or that Hitler knew about what was really happening

Fits the forced labor model.

Looks like death rates are no different than in Allied camps...

I'm a Gulf of Tonkin Incident Denier.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

THE GULF OF TONKIN "incident" was a pile of horseshit.

 

[derek]

If this thread degenerates then I'm just gonna have to close it.

Devy, elaborate if you can.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

are you familiar with it? it was just an excuse the usa made to jump into the vietnam war. they said one of our ships got attacked in the gulf of tonkin, and the retaliation by us pretty much started the war. further investigations showed that we didnt get attacked at all, and it was just a big lie. i read all about in high school so i dont remember the specifics but i think that is the gist of it...



and final product, you do realize that closing this thread would be pretty....stupid huh? let it sit here and if people want to reply then they can reply. no one is being rude. i didnt think a topic like this would last this long without getting overrun by racial and religious biggotry. almost every topic on here eventually "degernates" and they arent closed...

 

[derek]

I meant degeneration in the sense of short, valueless replies. (Kinda like this one )

Also, yes I am familiar with the Tonkin incident. I believe something similar happened during the American civil war in the harbour at charleston?

Point is: the powers that be will ALWAYS find a way to fulfill their agenda.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Americans should always be suspicious of Pearl Harbour events. It seems common for the government to faciltate an attack on its own people to justify joining in a war.