Holocaust deniers

[petehis kahn]

You mean like the tons and tons of documents settled this part of the evolution debate?

I don't trust most of those sources, but then again, as you can see from above, my position on this isn't for/against.

I haven't seen you around the forum before. Is this a pet issue for you?

I am sorry but you can't compare a scientific THEORY that happened millions and millions of years ago with a historical event that happened 50.

Tell me why the sources are tainted or why you don't trust them.

Yes, I take offence to the mis-use of history

 

[petehis kahn]

Also, I don't think using Jewish sources is any less biased than using revisionist sources. It is better to find something which is neither, ideally.

The Jewish websites are mearly hosting historical documents that can be found elsewhere.

I beg any of you people who claim the holocaust is a lie or a hoax or whatever to go to your nearest decent university or whatever go to their history section and do your OWN research.

There is literally millions and millions of books written from an evidence point of view, there is literally tons and tons of evidence to the holocaust, just do your own research for the love of god. I mean come on, deniel is seen as such a joke now days that my tongue in cheek post is turning accurate

4. And I'm a Chemist too! -- Express a series of doubts and claims about the properties of Zyklon-B, the gas used to kill people in Auschwitz gas chambers. For example, claim that Zyklon-B is not an ideal agent for mass gassing, and therefore the Nazis shouldn't have used it and thus they *didn't* use it.

Even better, claim that they *couldn't* have used it because the gas lingering in the chamber after the murders would have killed anyone trying to enter the chambers to remove the corpses. When someone explains to you (countless times) that some of the gas chambers had powerful ventilation systems to remove the gas and in other cases people entering wore gas masks, argue that despite the ventilation there would still somehow be enough residual gas in the chambers to kill people.

Keep waving a DuPont brochure around in an attempt to ward off those who know more about chemistry than you do. Also claim that ventilating the gas would cause problems to individuals downwind. When someone explains to you that the gas is lighter than air, just quietly go away for awhile or change the subject or complain about a mean word they may have used.

P.S if Leuchter is such an expert then why was his original findings found to be in error by any other test groups
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-04.html
Leuchter's data is further suspect because the delousing chambers where he obtained his samples were left intact by the SS, while the extermination chambers were destroyed. Clearly, their walls were exposed to the elements for forty-five years, which would certainly effect the validity of the samples taken. (The ruins of Krema II are covered with about three feet of water during certain periods of the year, and HCN compounds would eventually dissolve under such conditions. Nonetheless, so many gassings occurred there that some of the compound did remain).

Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not. Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in them. This debunks the major "amazing discovery" in Leuchter's report, which, in retrospect, wasn't 'amazing' at all.

A concentration of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) is sometimes used, with exposure times of up to 72 hours, to kill insects, but as little as 300 ppm will cause death in humans within fifteen minutes or so.

When the difference in the concentration of gas required to kill insects and humans was mentioned in Leuchter's cross-examination in the Zündel trial, Leuchter responded: " I've never killed beetles. I, you know, I don't know. I haven't made computations for killing beetles" - Hardly the response one would expect from an "expert" on the subject...

 

[petehis kahn]

If you want to meet some deniers:

http://www.ihr.org/

Did you find it amusing when the Institute for historical review had to pay that guy 50 000 dollars..... ahahah and he was a Jew, awesome hey.

Actually they had to pay him 90 000 dollars, I might just quote it again for a laugh

The Institute for Historical Review publicly offered a reward of $50,000 for verifiable "proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz." Mel Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz, submitted proof, which was then ignored. He then sued IHR and won the $50,000 reward, plus $40,000 in damages for personal suffering.

AHAHAHAHHA

Plus I must say on the video

Since none of the Kremas remained in their original state (Bunker I & II and Kremas II,III,IV and V destroyed, and Krema I modified) there is no physical evidence as to what the doors of the extermination gas chambers looked like. However, a door which probably belonged to an extermination gas chamber was discovered in the camp's building yard; it is massive, and reinforced with iron bars. Furthermore, the small peephole is protected from the inside with a strong metal grid, probably installed so the victims would not break the glass in the peephole.

Those making this claim present pictures of doors for the delousing chambers, which were not fortified, presumably on the assumption that viewers are too inept to notice the switch.

 

[Norsemaiden]

The Jewish websites are mearly hosting historical documents that can be found elsewhere.

I beg any of you people who claim the holocaust is a lie or a hoax or whatever to go to your nearest decent university or whatever go to their history section and do your OWN research.

There is literally millions and millions of books written from an evidence point of view, there is literally tons and tons of evidence to the holocaust, just do your own research for the love of god. I mean come on, deniel is seen as such a joke now days that my tongue in cheek post is turning accurate



P.S if Leuchter is such an expert then why was his original findings found to be in error by any other test groups
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-04.html
Leuchter's data is further suspect because the delousing chambers where he obtained his samples were left intact by the SS, while the extermination chambers were destroyed. Clearly, their walls were exposed to the elements for forty-five years, which would certainly effect the validity of the samples taken. (The ruins of Krema II are covered with about three feet of water during certain periods of the year, and HCN compounds would eventually dissolve under such conditions. Nonetheless, so many gassings occurred there that some of the compound did remain).

Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers were in contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those of the delousing chambers, and for the last 45 years were exposed to surroundings which dissolve the compounds, while the delousing rooms were not. Therefore it is obvious that less traces of compounds would remain in them. This debunks the major "amazing discovery" in Leuchter's report, which, in retrospect, wasn't 'amazing' at all.

A concentration of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) is sometimes used, with exposure times of up to 72 hours, to kill insects, but as little as 300 ppm will cause death in humans within fifteen minutes or so.

When the difference in the concentration of gas required to kill insects and humans was mentioned in Leuchter's cross-examination in the Zündel trial, Leuchter responded: " I've never killed beetles. I, you know, I don't know. I haven't made computations for killing beetles" - Hardly the response one would expect from an "expert" on the subject...

A lot of the evidence that supports the exaggeration of the holocaust can also be found on sites other than revisionists sites. The facts about how deadly and slow to disperse cyanide is, for example. Or the implausability of six million Jews being available for putting in camps.
It is very hard to be sure that the information you get from either side of the argument is true or fictitious. I prefer to use logic based deduction on things that are more certain to decide the extent to which I believe one version or another.

Leuchter's original test samples from Auchwitz were analysed by someone Jewish, who was unaware of where the samples came from. It was found that there was no cyanide. When the Jew found out that the samples were from the camp, all hell broke loose and they started saying the analysis was wrong, etc. Obviously an unbiased person would best conclude that they could not fully trust either side of the argument regarding the issue of samples of cyanide. That would be a balanced response.

Leuchter's field of expertise is not pest control, but human execution. He has never been charged with holocaust denial, and was impartial to the whole issue at the time he went to analyse the chambers at Auchwitz.

The Iranians have been forbidden by the Polish government from going there to look at the gas chambers in their attempt to study the holocaust. I really think that the impression that gives is that there is something to hide.

Also it really doesn't do anything to create confidence in the holocaust statistics when well known holocaust survivors who have written accounts and been on chat shows are later proved to be hoaxers and admit it. Not to mention that the number of survivors is ridiculous and some of them were not even born at the time. http://www.rense.com/general69/jsurv.htm

 

[petehis kahn]

ahahah ok Leuchter is a laughing stock, to use someone as poorly credible as him shows how weak the argument is.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-22.html

Although Leuchter is touted by Neo-Nazi publications and Holocaust deniers as an "expert," Mr. Leuchter's own testimony at the Zündel trial made it clear that he was neither an expert nor a credible witness.

The following is taken from Leuchter's testimony at the Zündel trial (Douglas Christie, Zündel's attorney is the questioner) - following the testimony are verbatim quotes from two American prison officials, which were obtained after Leuchter's testimony at the trial. We believe you will have no difficulty in determining the value of Mr. Leuchter's credentials after considering both:

Q: And what is your relationship with the operation of those facilities [i.e. gas chambers] in those two States [California and North Carolina]?

A: We consulted with both States, California primarily on a heart monitoring system to replace the older type mechanical diagraph stethoscope that's presently in use. We will be shipping to them shortly and installing a new heart monitor for both chairs in their gas chamber.

Q: You are consulted by the State, I understand?

A: Yes, Juan Vasquez.

Q: I see. And in North Carolina?

A: North Carolina. My discussions and work was with one Nathan Reise, and he had some work done by their maintenance personnel on their gas chamber two years ago, and they had a problem with the gasket on a door leaking. At which point, we discussed it with him and recommended remedial procedures to change the gas chamber.

Q: And he consults you in regard to those matters?

A: He does.

What do those two facilities have to say about the matter? First, the warden at San Quentin (California) responds:

"I can inform you, however, that San Quentin has not contracted with Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. for the installation of a heart monitoring system or for any other work." Signed: DANIEL B. Vasquez, Warden (California)

Next, we offer the comments from North Carolina prison officials:

"I discussed your request with Mr. Nathan A. RICE, Former Warden, and he stated that he vaguely recalled a telephone conversation between him and a gentleman professing to be an expert on execution chambers. Mr. Rice further states that the gentleman called him for the purpose of selling a lethal injection machine...

Also, our records do not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning and work was performed by the Department of Correction Engineering Section and our institution maintenance department." Signed: Gary T. Dixon, Warden (North Carolina)

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/press/washington-post-0691.html

goodness me

 

[petehis kahn]

A lot of the evidence that supports the exaggeration of the holocaust can also be found on sites other than revisionists sites. The facts about how deadly and slow to disperse cyanide is, for example. Or the implausability of six million Jews being available for putting in camps.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-20.html

This claim is ridiculous, as attested to by all population statistics of that time, including the numbers of Jews appearing in many original Nazi documents... for instance:

Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference, January 20 1942, regarding the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953., Vol. XIII, p. 210]

II. At the beginning of the meeting the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich, reported his appointment by the Reich Marshal [Goering] to service as Commissioner for the preparation of the Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem....

In the course of this final solution of the European Jewish Problem, approximately 11 million Jews are involved. They are distributed among individual countries as follows:
..
A. Original Reich Territory [Altreich] 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
Government General [Nazi occupied Poland] 2,284,000
..
..
The Netherlands 160,800
..
..
Rumania, including Bessarabia 342,000
..
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
..
..
White Russia, excluding Bialystok 446,484
[Many countries deleted for brevity]
TOTAL over 11,000,000

 

[petehis kahn]

Also it really doesn't do anything to create confidence in the holocaust statistics when well known holocaust survivors who have written accounts and been on chat shows are later proved to be hoaxers and admit it. Not to mention that the number of survivors is ridiculous and some of them were not even born at the time. http://www.rense.com/general69/jsurv.htm

I just noticed the edit

11. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of testimony about the Holocaust seems unreliable, then ALL testimony about the Holocaust is unreliable. If one Holocaust witness may have recanted something on the stand, then all other Holocaust witnesses are liars. If some camp prisoners did not starve to death, then NONE of them starved to death. etc. But be careful. This is a double-edged sword -- someone may use the well-documented lies of other revisionists to conclude that YOU are a liar as well.

You are almost the stereotype of a holocaust denier

 

[Norsemaiden]

I just noticed the edit



You are almost the stereotype of a holocaust denier

I would be considered a holocaust denier for saying the figures are exaggerated. Yet that is what most people believe. I don't wish to be bullied into submission by either side. I am considered to be with the other side just because I am mentioning their arguments. However it is an interesting consideration that I have nothing personally to gain from one side or the other being correct because it is irrelevant to me and is at worst just one terrible mass killing of many occuring in history, in the present day (even some would say the abortion holocaust) and what is likely to happen again in the future. What relevance it has in the present day is only that the Jewish holocaust is very much used as a club to beat people with, and that is real and I don't like it. Obviously you don't have a problem yourself with this aspect, which makes me wonder why not.

Revisionists no doubt get things wrong and some may lie either because they think they can get away with it (common also to the other side of the argument) or even because they are infiltrators working for the other side of the argument. Infiltration of the so called "far right" is very commonplace. Probably more common than not. So once again it proves nothing one way or another in this friendly and philosophical debate if there are suspected liars.

 

[speed]

1 - Being a moderator doesn't require you to censor opinions on a forum that your other moderator has already told me is free-speech oriented. "Freedom within limits" if you weren't already aware, is an oxymoron. Appealing to emotional arguments as you did for the point in contention is not a way to win an argument. "I'd like to see you do it to a survivor's face" is not a logically-constructed argument. It's an argument based on pity, and it is also an ad hom, a tactic which Final Product has told us all not to employ when arguing in a philosopher's forum.

2 - This is another example of an appeal to emotion, not to mention horredous logic; just because most countries would jail someone for saying a certain thing, this does not make that certain thing an untruth. Seven billion people can scream an untruth from the rooftops, and it still doesn't make it true.

3 - Are you forgetting the role the Allies played in bombing the food supply lines? It wasn't just the Nazis, speed. It may be convenient to think so, but as above, it doesn't address the entire scope of the question. Besides, who said these people were innocent? Relativistically, they were parasites upon the German government at the time, which led to their expulsion; conversely, you are telling me now in the modern day that you have no use for "Nazi scum" like me, and I'm sure that you would have no problem seeing me dead for my beliefs. Do you see the double standard, or do I have to point it out in simpler terms?

4 - You just finished telling me that facts are subjective. Which is it? Or is it only when it suits your argument that "facts" become objective?

5 - Another blatant ad hom. Final Product won't be pleased about this. I don't care what threads you close. My issue is with impartial moderation, based on pre-existing biases.

6 - This is a subjective assessment of your own, rather than a factual assessment based upon "objectivity"; reveal your sources that prove his claims false (since the burden is upon you for making the assertion to the contrary), or be labelled a shittalker like Kenneth.

As has already been pointed out, this yet another example of the double-standard/oxymoron in practice - "freedom within limits".

7 - This does not redeem your previous ad homs in any way, but thank you nonetheless, and you aren't so bad yourself, considering.

8 - Unsubstantiated claims, with no proof. Ad hom to boot. Non-responsive. Shall I go on? I'v already told you and Final Product that I do not subscribe to holocaust denial, and that I was actually defending Norsemaiden most out of anyone here, despite my earlier posts being of a general nature directed towards the bias against any point of view that contradicts the opinions of the moderators, who seem to be going on quite a crusade to silence and quell the people who are advancing all these viewpoints they disagree with! This isn't fair moderation; this is censorship. Philosophers (if you flatter yourself to call yourself one) do not cover their ears when differing viewpoints are offered that may potentially rebut their own positions, notr do they tell the offending parties to silence themselves. This is unbelieveable behaviour from anyone, and I question your motives.

9 - Well, maybe some of us aren't around this particular forum often enough that every single salient thread which descends upon these topics is spied out for a "debate" to occur. I fall into this category. I rarely come to this forum any longer due to the charlatanism on display from both users and moderators alike. By the way, this point is yet another ad hom. What is this now, five? Six? In one post? For shame.

10 - Your emotional instability at handling your duties is not my problem; I don't see why I'm being singled out as your scapegoat for this particular debate. Obviously, these are important topics, otherwise they wouldn't be arising in the forum. Why do you want to quell debate on these issues? Are you going to tell me about more of these widely-agreed upon "facts" you keep harping about, which you can't seem to decide if they're subjective or objective?

Again, I sincerely hope this won't be deleted; I'll keep an archive regardless.

1) Idiotic, off topic and FALSE threads will be closed. See the Money thread, the Life thread, and others for what I am talking about. Threads that spread lies and hate will be closed. End of story. This is a moderated forum, and we have posted rules detailing how and why we will close threads. I suggest you read them, and accept the fact there is a moderator before you post here again, or you will be only met with disappointment. In all cases, thread starter has been pm'ed about needing to change their thread. This thread should be closed down, but we've agreed to keep it open, partly due to the fact Mr. P Kahn is arguing circles around you pro-Nazi's.

2) The gentleman was jailed after a fair and balanced trial, in which the official historical record was involved and played a direct part in convicting him. Hence, being a nazi denier inherently means one is thinking contrary to history. Sure there may have been less Jews killed than imagined, or more, but there is no real evidence denying the Holocaust, and I think it sickening persons feel the need to cover up the real end and outcome (holocaust)of the philosophy/religion of Nazism they espouse.

3) I dont see how Dresden has anything to do with the Holocaust. Total war was a central feature to WWII warfare, and one the Germans started with their massive brutality on the Eastern Front. Each and every actor in WWII was guilty of very heinous actions war-related, actions as a result of WWII.

4) See no1. Very few things are objective; I think postmodern philosophy has proven that. Final Product and I are merely human beings, as are you. And all three of us, at times, allow our own personal biases and thoughts cloud our actions and judgments. You seem especially clouded by hate and White Supremacy--which you like to deny--but you only post on this board when there is a nazi-racist-or white supremacist argument.

5) Pre-existing bias. Are you mad, or naive? I dont think you are going to find anyone that can moderate without some pre-existing bias--including yourself.

6) I see no need to add to P. Kahn's susbtantial evidence. Frankly, I was not even interested in this debate until you ad hom'd and attacked Final Product yesterday. http://www.yadvashem.org/ This site lists over a million names, countless official german documents, photographs, testimonies, etc. Or perhaps you could visit the Holocaust museum full of artifacts, and disgusting displays in Washington DC. I was in DC this December, and very shaken by what I saw.

7) yes, thanking you, we can insult each other all day if you wish. You insult me and then cry about my ad homs--which is the tactic of a spoiled child.

8) Philosophers do cover their ears in instances of pure propaganda. Plato I believe has rather extensive thoughts on lies and propaganda. We have allowed numerous race, and Nazi comments on this board, including on this thread. And I believe, you got in a huff, only when Final Product urged certain people to calm down. So, I ask you to become more of a philosopher, and actually argue some point, or something; which you dont seem capable of doing.

9) I am personally glad you dont come around here anymore, and I kindly ask you not to browse or post on the forum if that's what you think of it. There are thousands of forums out there, and surely one or two of them, would accept you.

10) Yes I get emotional when someone makes repeated emotional attacks upon me and my fellow moderator. What do they say about those that cast the first stone? Frankly your behavior is baiting, childlike, condescending, ad totally devoid of any actual worth. You have succeeded in pissing me and my fellow moderator off, and nothing else. No one else has supported you or you claims, no one else has taken issue with our moderation. I repeat my request for you to leave the forum, or attempt--if so possible--to post something other than attacks and complaints, and actually attempt real discourse with persons who may think differently than you.

 

[Crimson Velvet]

I think the main reason he's pointing out your ad homs is because Final Product specifically said that they were not to be used.

 

[speed]

I think the main reason he's pointing out your ad homs is because Final Product specifically said that they were not to be used.

But didnt he use them himself in his attack? I can go back and quote his condenscending attacks if you'd like. Look, when I'm personally attacked, Im counterattacking. Im sorry, but Im a imperfect being, and I dont believe in turning the other cheek.

Furthermore, we cant shut down the board, because these things happen with every discussion; its only when they get out of control that I, and Final Product worry and act. Almost every other post has some form of ad hom within it.

 

[Norsemaiden]

IMPUGNING THE ICONIC POWER OF THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST

British ambassador to Israel: West Bank is Largest Concentration Camp in the World http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1015-02.htm

"You have reduced the West Bank and Gaza Strip to two vast concentration camps, you are imposing collective house arrest on hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and you are hunting down innocent people in the streets."
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01112002/0111200297.htm

On this basis alone, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre felt compelled to order the ambassador to be recalled on charges of "Holocaust revisionism, banalisation of the memory of its victims and endorsement of the most extreme voices of Palestinian anti-semitism". http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,816057,00.html

Perfect example of holocaust being used as a club to beat Israel's critics into submission. Also an example of how little you have to say to be BRANDED A "HOLOCAUST REVISIONIST" OR "DENIER".

The Gaza Strip is the WORLD'S MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREA.

"Israel's Occupational Army forces Gazans to live under inhuman conditions of overcrowding, malnutrition, humiliation, murder, segregation, massive unemployment and poor if any sanitation." Similar with West Bank.
http://world.mediamonitors.net/headlines/zionists_show_poor_powers_of_concentration

HEY PEOPLE! THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW! DO YOU CARE?!

 

[Crimson Velvet]

Hehe, don't worry about it. I didn't mean for it to sound as if I took his side in this. In fact, I agreed with you in just about everything said thus far, except the part about ad homs. It seemed to me that he utilized them to underline the conflict between what FP said and tactics you used to get your point across.

 

[speed]

Hehe, don't worry about it. I didn't mean for it to sound as if I took his side in this. In fact, I agreed with you in just about everything said thus far, except the part about ad homs. It seemed to me that he utilized them to underline the conflict between what FP said and tactics you used to get your point across.

Hey, like I said, he threw the first stone, and I am not evolved enough to turn the other cheek.

I honestly dont think either of our posts have any relevancy to this forum, and have devolved into personal argument. But, I cant do anything about that without my actions looking very suspicious. I tried it once with Judas69, and regretted it and reopened them.

I am confident he made the comments he did, to provoke such a argument out of us. Its a clever ploy. But, if we roll over, we look ineffectual and he's won, and if we attack his idiocy, we look like hypocrites. I hope I havent stepped into the hypocrite phase too much; final product is far more even keeled than I.

 

[speed]

IMPUGNING THE ICONIC POWER OF THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST

British ambassador to Israel: West Bank is Largest Concentration Camp in the World http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1015-02.htm

"You have reduced the West Bank and Gaza Strip to two vast concentration camps, you are imposing collective house arrest on hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and you are hunting down innocent people in the streets."
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01112002/011200297.htm

On this basis alone, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre felt compelled to order the ambassador to be recalled on charges of "Holocaust revisionism, banalisation of the memory of its victims and endorsement of the most extreme voices of Palestinian anti-semitism". http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,816057,00.html

Perfect example of holocaust being used as a club to beat Israel's critics into submission. Also an example of how little you have to say to be BRANDED A "HOLOCAUST REVISIONIST" OR "DENIER".

The Gaza Strip is the WORLD'S MOST DENSELY POPULATED AREA.

"Israel's Occupational Army forces Gazans to live under inhuman conditions of overcrowding, malnutrition, humiliation, murder, segregation, massive unemployment and poor if any sanitation." Similar with West Bank.
http://world.mediamonitors.net/headlines/zionists_show_poor_powers_of_concentration

HEY PEOPLE! THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW! DO YOU CARE?!

These are all valid points that this thread should be discussing, not the validity of the holocaust.

 

[Norsemaiden]

These are all valid points that this thread should be discussing, not the validity of the holocaust.

Yes Speed. I felt it was good to try to present the revisionist side of the story in the interests of not allowing the pro 6 million view to seem to be unchallenged and wholly valid (although I was not alone in challenging it). In conclusion, it is likely that neither side is completely truthful and unbiased in everything they say. It is far more relevant to discuss things that are happening NOW rather than history and we can see what the facts are more easily now than by sifting through propaganda from an event over 60 years ago.

 

[derek]

Yes Speed. I felt it was good to try to present the revisionist side of the story in the interests of not allowing the pro 6 million view to seem to be unchallenged and wholly valid. In conclusion, it is likely that neither side is completely truthful and unbiased in everything they say. It is far more relevant to discuss things that are happening NOW rather than history and we can see what the facts are more easily now than by sifting through propaganda from an event over 60 years ago.

Most sensible thing said in quite a few pages

 

[petehis kahn]

I would be considered a holocaust denier for saying the figures are exaggerated. Yet that is what most people believe. I don't wish to be bullied into submission by either side. I am considered to be with the other side just because I am mentioning their arguments. However it is an interesting consideration that I have nothing personally to gain from one side or the other being correct because it is irrelevant to me and is at worst just one terrible mass killing of many occuring in history, in the present day (even some would say the abortion holocaust) and what is likely to happen again in the future. What relevance it has in the present day is only that the Jewish holocaust is very much used as a club to beat people with, and that is real and I don't like it. Obviously you don't have a problem yourself with this aspect, which makes me wonder why not.

Revisionists no doubt get things wrong and some may lie either because they think they can get away with it (common also to the other side of the argument) or even because they are infiltrators working for the other side of the argument. Infiltration of the so called "far right" is very commonplace. Probably more common than not. So once again it proves nothing one way or another in this friendly and philosophical debate if there are suspected liars.

You obviously do have an interest, my interest is to see history retold truthfully which it more or less is now days.

Look when things have been proven false about the holocaust, such as the nazis making soap out of people they are dropped from history. You people have little to no idea the amount of debate and research that goes into history and I would say that the holocaust is one of the most researched events ever.

I feel no guilt for the holocaust and never will, I feel that it must serve as a lesson to mankind that it should not happen again, of course we allowed it to happen again in Bosnia. Even if the Jews did not have the holocaust they still have 2000 years of pograms to bring up if they so desire.

If the numbers are false where did all the Jews of Poland go ????

Being a bigot or perhaps even just liking the values of national socialism is no excuse to wipe off 5-6 million (plus more of course, we are only talking Jews in the first figure.... it is likely up around 10 million innocents killed by the Nazis) deaths. I have said it again and again we are talking one of the most well documented event in history, the nazis were very big on the whole record keeping.

To say it is a hoax is to suggest that Jews, Allied forces and the Soviets (who were an allied force, but should be seperate to show how simply unlikely the claim is) came up with this idea in secret to come up with the biggest hoax idea in history and to carry it out to this day. They all forged documents and witness statements and managed to do so, so future historians and experts on document fraud do not notice interperloting (yet they do with denier evidence, how strange don't you think) to carry out what end exactly, to create the state of israel... this is simply the most crazy thing I have ever heard.

What is easier to believe

The Germans found a leader in a time of depression who could scapegoat a group of people, they fell for his lies and ways and he implimented a program that led to the death of millions of them (which has been done time and time again throughout history)

or

Hitler was a great dude and any thing he said about the destruction of the Jews was just a joke or a metaphor or something and he just locked them up because they like declared war on him or something, then the allies and the soviets all fell under this big ole JEW PLOT and started to forge documentation that has somehow stood up to 50 years of examination by people who can spot fakes and interpolated documents a mile away.

I mean how do you explain this

From the U.S. Holocaust Museum: Map from Stahlecker's report entitled "Jewish Executions Carried Out by Einsatzgruppe A" and stamped "Secret Reich Matter." It shows the number of Jews executed in the Baltic States and Belarus in 1941. The legend at the bottom states that "the estimated number of Jews still on hand is 128,000." Estonia is marked as "judenfrei". Held in the Latvian State Historical Archives, Riga

 

[infoterror]

I am sorry but you can't compare a scientific THEORY that happened millions and millions of years ago with a historical event that happened 50.

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out that common assumptions can be wrong because people repeat things other people say without knowing if they are true or not.

I win the point, because your rebuttal is a non-sequitur.

 

[infoterror]

Infiltration of the so called "far right" is very commonplace. Probably more common than not.

Truer words on the topic have never been spoken.

Signs indicate it's getting worse.