Holy shit....England = 1984?
- Thread starter Krilons Resa
- Start date
What news stories in particular led you to believe this out of interest?
We value free speech in this country but we value other things too, and some of the times these things are mutually exclusive.
"Cancel culture" however is out of hand.
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einride
your best friend
- Feb 29, 2008
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yeah i was just about to say, sources please because a cursory googling brings up nothing
from my limited understanding of british politics they’re actually leaning pretty heavily conservative lately which ill fits with the ”omg the world is ending due to sjws and The Gays” narrative
from my limited understanding of british politics they’re actually leaning pretty heavily conservative lately which ill fits with the ”omg the world is ending due to sjws and The Gays” narrative
rms
Active Member
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...d-children-calling-transgender-woman-man.html
Think it was this awhile back that got people fired up
Think it was this awhile back that got people fired up
The Daily Mail is pretty much the definition of the gutter press. If you read this stuff and think this is representative of daily life in jolly old England then maybe reassess where you get your news from.
Both women/people in that news story are clearly morons and got the attention they were undoubtedly craving from that story.
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SonOfNun
Bill Ward's Red Pants
That is probably true about the Daily Mail and those individuals, but misses the point that one of them was arrested for her comments. You can read about it in another source, but the facts of the case seem to be pretty clear: she was accused of "making use of a public communications network to cause annoyance/inconvenience and anxiety to Hayden" by "misgendering" him and so her home was invaded and she was arrested, had private property confiscated, and was detained for seven hours. She was then "served with a court order that bans her from referring to her accuser as a man."
Aside from Kate Scottow, there are many stories from across the last several years. I'm not an expert on the evolution of hate speech laws in the U.K. and their enforcement, but these are also alarming:
This article contains links to several incidents including convictions for posting rap lyrics and teaching a dog to heil. It also links to an article from "The Times" that says that over 3,000 people are arrested and questioned over "so-called trolling on social media and other online forums" each year (a number that is rising):
https://reason.com/2018/09/15/britain-turns-offensive-speech-into-a-po/
This contains discussion of police investigation of "transphobic" tweets:
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/...4mrFK8QzyPjURgQJX-vO6PftNsPN3PlhYiu-QikVzFSDg
This article concerns a very recent incident where two teens were arrested for a hate crime for posting a photo of themselves posing as George Floyd and the cop:
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-tyne-52877886
This article concerns a particularly alarming "hate crime" bill in Scotland which started with very broad definitions of "stirring up offences" with Scotland's Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf (seriously?) defending the idea of "stirring up hatred in your private dwelling" being a part of the bill. As of a couple weeks ago I don't believe a dwelling defense has been added to the bill.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...cuQRwUlYIJO9ePo3qSsm25SPoh2RClmLg1wkBgJPUZrrc
At the very least these examples of incidents and legislation should reveal a very concerning thought process that seeks to arbitrarily choose which ideas are offensive and to criminalize the expression of those ideas to the extent of incarceration.
Aside from Kate Scottow, there are many stories from across the last several years. I'm not an expert on the evolution of hate speech laws in the U.K. and their enforcement, but these are also alarming:
This article contains links to several incidents including convictions for posting rap lyrics and teaching a dog to heil. It also links to an article from "The Times" that says that over 3,000 people are arrested and questioned over "so-called trolling on social media and other online forums" each year (a number that is rising):
https://reason.com/2018/09/15/britain-turns-offensive-speech-into-a-po/
This contains discussion of police investigation of "transphobic" tweets:
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/...4mrFK8QzyPjURgQJX-vO6PftNsPN3PlhYiu-QikVzFSDg
This article concerns a very recent incident where two teens were arrested for a hate crime for posting a photo of themselves posing as George Floyd and the cop:
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-tyne-52877886
This article concerns a particularly alarming "hate crime" bill in Scotland which started with very broad definitions of "stirring up offences" with Scotland's Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf (seriously?) defending the idea of "stirring up hatred in your private dwelling" being a part of the bill. As of a couple weeks ago I don't believe a dwelling defense has been added to the bill.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...cuQRwUlYIJO9ePo3qSsm25SPoh2RClmLg1wkBgJPUZrrc
At the very least these examples of incidents and legislation should reveal a very concerning thought process that seeks to arbitrarily choose which ideas are offensive and to criminalize the expression of those ideas to the extent of incarceration.
einride
your best friend
- Feb 29, 2008
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-51501202
see, i can cherry pick articles i googled too
see, i can cherry pick articles i googled too
J.
Old Fart
SonOfNun
Bill Ward's Red Pants
You really have some sort of bizarre hang-up on Americans that is based on this assumption that we all (or at least conservatives) hold this "murica can do no wrong" mindset that is not only false but that I've already addressed in reply to your first response. I despise American government and society (as it has existed for quite some time) and have made it abundantly clear that this country is caught up in the same nonsense. It doesn't refute anything that I said to say "BUT YOUR COUNTRY TOO." All that you have done in this thread is make snarky straw man comments.
If you had paid attention to anything that I've said you would have also noticed that I said that a couple of recent rulings have been in favor of free speech. I don't think they are enough to demonstrate that the general trajectory of thought on this issue is anything but alarming, as is evidenced by the Scottish bill that is still currently being debated. Even the article you linked says that:
"Mr Miller, 54, also launched a wider challenge against the lawfulness of College of Policing guidelines on hate crimes, which was rejected.
Mr Justice Knowles ruled they 'serve legitimate purposes and [are] not disproportionate'.
The guidelines define a hate incident as 'any non-crime incident which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender'."
That hardly resolves these questions in favor of free speech generally, nor does it curb transgender ideology activists (and others) from pushing for continually harsher enforcement of those guidelines or the passage of more invasive "hate speech" laws as the one proposed above.
I think a person has to be quite delusional to not see that the general trend throughout the Western world recently has been towards the enshrinement of these ideologies in opposition to freedom of speech. I pray that some of the isolated instances of backlash against this are the beginning of a trend in the other direction, but I am simply not confident about that at this time. I think that my conclusion about this is quite reasonable and I would think you could concur since it echoes your own thoughts on a separate matter of censorship in the Discogs thread.
I would like to know what exactly you disagree with aside from the false idea you've ascribed to me that this isn't an issue in the U.S. too? It seems like your responses are based on some sort of imaginary pissing contest between the U.S. and Europe that causes you to feel the need to defend European countries when that's really not the point at all.
If you had paid attention to anything that I've said you would have also noticed that I said that a couple of recent rulings have been in favor of free speech. I don't think they are enough to demonstrate that the general trajectory of thought on this issue is anything but alarming, as is evidenced by the Scottish bill that is still currently being debated. Even the article you linked says that:
"Mr Miller, 54, also launched a wider challenge against the lawfulness of College of Policing guidelines on hate crimes, which was rejected.
Mr Justice Knowles ruled they 'serve legitimate purposes and [are] not disproportionate'.
The guidelines define a hate incident as 'any non-crime incident which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender'."
That hardly resolves these questions in favor of free speech generally, nor does it curb transgender ideology activists (and others) from pushing for continually harsher enforcement of those guidelines or the passage of more invasive "hate speech" laws as the one proposed above.
I think a person has to be quite delusional to not see that the general trend throughout the Western world recently has been towards the enshrinement of these ideologies in opposition to freedom of speech. I pray that some of the isolated instances of backlash against this are the beginning of a trend in the other direction, but I am simply not confident about that at this time. I think that my conclusion about this is quite reasonable and I would think you could concur since it echoes your own thoughts on a separate matter of censorship in the Discogs thread.
I would like to know what exactly you disagree with aside from the false idea you've ascribed to me that this isn't an issue in the U.S. too? It seems like your responses are based on some sort of imaginary pissing contest between the U.S. and Europe that causes you to feel the need to defend European countries when that's really not the point at all.
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einride
your best friend
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i am generally in favour of nearly unbounded free speech too, but if we are both in agreement that there should be some limits to it (i.e. maybe not call for stoning of homosexuals and genocide of whole peoples) then society "seeking to arbitrarily choose which ideas are offensive" is inevitable. and the zeitgeist is such that it happens that there is a lot of lgbt rights stuff going on right now. so as always with new ideas there is a push and a pull and if the scale sometimes tips a little bit towards moral panic at the moment then i have no doubt that it will swing back to reason eventually. this is how history and politics generally works and hardly a sign of the endtimes.
so i'm being dismissive because i think it stinks to high heaven -- excuse the pun -- when a christian cherry-picks articles from the daily fucking mail to make some sort of "look at this, them gosh durn homosexuals are bringing on literal 1984 and suppressing free speech" point. you have no first-hand experience of what the general climate in the uk is like, so you're just linking to articles you googled five minutes ago to try and force the narrative to fit your worldview.
the reality is that free speech in europe is alive and well, there is a lively debate and a wide spectrum of ideas and things happening on both sides. we are all okay and we are all going to be okay.
so i'm being dismissive because i think it stinks to high heaven -- excuse the pun -- when a christian cherry-picks articles from the daily fucking mail to make some sort of "look at this, them gosh durn homosexuals are bringing on literal 1984 and suppressing free speech" point. you have no first-hand experience of what the general climate in the uk is like, so you're just linking to articles you googled five minutes ago to try and force the narrative to fit your worldview.
the reality is that free speech in europe is alive and well, there is a lively debate and a wide spectrum of ideas and things happening on both sides. we are all okay and we are all going to be okay.
J.
Old Fart
dude. we have literal wannabe chicks with dicks over here. and some people dont like chick fil a
we are not okay
SonOfNun
Bill Ward's Red Pants
This paragraph really exemplifies the problem with this thread which is that you've continually misread what I've actually said and imputed a whole bunch of nonsense onto me based on your stereotypes about both Americans and Christians.
1. I didn't link the Daily Mail.
2. I'm not an evangelical and that is not in anyway the point I was making or the "narrative" that I crafted. At no point did I make comments or arguments that would be indicative of that. Recent events have revolved around transgender ideology but I clearly pointed to examples involving race and the entire idea of "hate speech" in general. One could look at anti-racism, "Islamophobia," or whatever other angle you desire to explore the violation of free speech.
3. Those articles weren't "googled five minutes ago." I stay current on these events and I had shared the articles about the Scotland bill, "George Floyd" re-creation, etc. on social media previously. It is neither cherry-picking nor "forcing a narrative" to share evidence of a general trend (which is the suppression of free speech), a trend that I think is blatantly obvious and well-documented. You're free to have your own interpretation but there's not any basis to say I'm just making these things up. I'm in academia and I'm quite aware of the anti-free speech culture that is shared by certain classes of people on both sides of the Atlantic. I deal with this practically every day and I can see parallels in the thinking along with evidence embodied by the laws and incidents I've referenced among others.
In short, this thread was derailed because you reacted out of prejudice and dubbed me some kind of evangelical neo-con rather than honestly grappling with anything I had to say (or even trying to ascertain what I was saying). I'm glad that you have a rosy perspective on the future, but know that my interpretations are not knee-jerk reactions. I assess everything in context of long-term changes and the general trajectory on this matter and several others in my own country and abroad are alarming to me. If we don't agree on that, that's fine.
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J.
Old Fart
Ellestin
one-click buy
the whole cancel culture hysteria going on these days is a bit unsettling but essentially these "attacks on free speech" are a bunch of professional victimization artists firing their agendas and social media working as a magnifying glass, and ultimately some politicians riding the bandwagon for obvious electoral whoring.
I also believe that humanity as a whole has more important issues to deal with than constantly pushing to remodel mindframes whenever someone is allegedly butthurt over an adjective that's been vernacular with no offensive undertone whatsoever for centuries. Admittedly I'm speaking from the lofty throne of white and straight heterosexual privilege here.
Reality will strike reason into this mess as it has always done. In the meantime I'd rather refrain from overreactions, there's only so much outrage over hot air my brain can process.
I also believe that humanity as a whole has more important issues to deal with than constantly pushing to remodel mindframes whenever someone is allegedly butthurt over an adjective that's been vernacular with no offensive undertone whatsoever for centuries. Admittedly I'm speaking from the lofty throne of white and straight heterosexual privilege here.
Reality will strike reason into this mess as it has always done. In the meantime I'd rather refrain from overreactions, there's only so much outrage over hot air my brain can process.
Yes, these two points sum up exactly what I was trying to say. I just found your characterization of the UK as having gone "full dystopian" as frankly ridiculous and over-the-top. And really, we have much bigger problems right now in this country that this stuff doesn't even register with me.
BTW the article on Scotland was by an equally repugnant news organization. I'm not saying that the article is one big lie, I'm just not going to get worked up on it based on how it has been reported in that article.
SonOfNun
Bill Ward's Red Pants
That's all reasonable and fine. I admit to exaggerating in my initial post (as is standard form on RC). I did not expect for it to be taken so literally or for Erik to mischaracterize what I was saying in the way that he did (which was actually really off-base and objectionable). I don't think anything I said after that initial post was unreasonable and, again, you can confirm the controversy over the Scotland bill in any other source you want to (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-remarks-are-repeated-in-playground-gphxlsx26). You can go on the Scottish Parliament website and read the information about the bill there if that's all that will satisfy you (it's clear that "stirring up hatred" is used broadly and that there is no dwelling defence).
I work in an environment where I am surrounded by people who take hate speech deadly seriously and applaud cancel culture. I am the only dissenter in my department and the only person that has to carefully select every word that I say to avoid potentially losing my position due to having "controversial" opinions. If you are in a field where you are insulated from that then good for you. I am in a career where I am very tuned in to the elite culture that operates in our political, media, and academic institutions (that share vast similarities on both sides of the Atlantic) and I have first-hand experience with these issues that others may not. The trend that I see from inside these institutions is alarming and the chilling effect on free speech is tangible, real, and worsening.
"Cancel culture" is one manifestation of a worldview that is threatening to society in many more ways than those alluded to in this thread and constitutes a big problem to me. If you are in a position where it has not yet affected you or you have more general optimism about society then we can simply agree to disagree about how alarming these issues are.
I work in an environment where I am surrounded by people who take hate speech deadly seriously and applaud cancel culture. I am the only dissenter in my department and the only person that has to carefully select every word that I say to avoid potentially losing my position due to having "controversial" opinions. If you are in a field where you are insulated from that then good for you. I am in a career where I am very tuned in to the elite culture that operates in our political, media, and academic institutions (that share vast similarities on both sides of the Atlantic) and I have first-hand experience with these issues that others may not. The trend that I see from inside these institutions is alarming and the chilling effect on free speech is tangible, real, and worsening.
"Cancel culture" is one manifestation of a worldview that is threatening to society in many more ways than those alluded to in this thread and constitutes a big problem to me. If you are in a position where it has not yet affected you or you have more general optimism about society then we can simply agree to disagree about how alarming these issues are.
