How to decide if a plugin sounds good

[EachHit]

Hi Folks,

I am having some issues on finding out if some plugins make my tracks sound better or if they don't.

Most of the plugins are doing something which sounds better at first but I haven't find a way to compare it to the original sound easy.

For example I am just trying the Demo Version of VC from Slate Digital. I was just putting one on my guitar Tracks and they sound slightly better. A bit more directly and clearer.
The Problem is I haven't found an easy method to compare it to the Original Source at the same Volume.

Does anybody have a tip how to setup Pro Tools 10 so I can easily compare the Track with and without plugin.

I wanted to use the Search Engine but I have no Idea what to look for.
As a German I am still having issues finding the right technical words for what I am going to do.

Heavy Greetz

 

[rapucore]

I match the output volume (or the perceived volume) inside the plugin and then compare with bypassing and enabling the plugin. I'm pretty sure most plugins have adjustable output knob.

 

[NecroDM]

I match the output volume (or the perceived volume) inside the plugin and then compare with bypassing and enabling the plugin. I'm pretty sure most plugins have adjustable output knob.

Exactly, also do this for the track alone and in the mix. As it could sound better alone but worse in the mix

 

[RiF]

As the other said, it's really important to use the output gain on your plugins so that there's no volume change when you bypass the plugin. This allows you to cleary hear the effect of the plugin and not getting fooled by "louder is better".

And if you're using something like VCC or a tape simulation plugin on every (or a lot of) tracks and you want to compare the cummulative effect of those plugins, you can place them all in the same insert slot in the Pro Tools mixer. Then there's a keyboard modifier (a combination of shift, alt etc.) that allows you to bypass / deactivate ALL plugins in that insert slot at once. I don't know the exact modifier combination out of my head though (it is 2 modifier keys. ctrl+alt or ctrl+windows while clicking on the plugin maybe).

Another trick to compare the effect of the whole plugin chain on a track (multiple plugins):
Duplicate the track, bypass all the plugins on the duplicated track, mark some regions (err clips in PT10) in the arrange window in BOTH tracks, solo (or mute) one of the tracks and then press Shift+S (for solo, if you want to hear the track in isolation) to toggle the solo-state between those two tracks. Or use Shift-M to toggle the mute state if you want to hear it in the context of the whole mix. This allows you to quickly switch back and forth between those tracks instantanously.

PS: VCC's output level adjustment controls are "hidden" in the "Output & VU Settings": Here you have a +/- 1 dB level adjustment slider. Hopefully that's enough for proper level compensation. If not, you'll need to place a Trim plugin right behind VCC and bypass that together with VCC for comparing.

 

[Nimvi]

Lots of good stuff has already been said and +1 to all of it.

I would also like to add some mix philosophy:
You may be overthinking these things. The most important thing is to have a vision. Why are you adding the plugin? What are you trying to add/change/fix? Does the desired change take place when using the plugin? If yes, trust your ears and leave it on; tweak it to taste. If not, the plugin is probably not helping you in your current action and may actually be complicating things, so skip it for now.

If you do like what you hear and leave the plugin on, also listen for unintended changes that may be happening. They may be no problem, but sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass later. For example, the Neve channel on VCC. I think many people here agree that it adds a nice thickness to things, but it can become muddy and out of control really quickly. It's good to be aware of that.

I know those things don't directly address your question, but I had a feeling that you aren't sure of what you want your tracks to sound like yet; which may result in chasing your tail for days and getting frustrated. If I'm wrong about that, just ignore what I wrote

 

[mharwood]

Lots of good stuff has already been said and +1 to all of it.

I would also like to add some mix philosophy:
You may be overthinking these things. The most important thing is to have a vision. Why are you adding the plugin? What are you trying to add/change/fix? Does the desired change take place when using the plugin? If yes, trust your ears and leave it on; tweak it to taste. If not, the plugin is probably not helping you in your current action and may actually be complicating things, so skip it for now.

If you do like what you hear and leave the plugin on, also listen for unintended changes that may be happening. They may be no problem, but sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass later. For example, the Neve channel on VCC. I think many people here agree that it adds a nice thickness to things, but it can become muddy and out of control really quickly. It's good to be aware of that.

I know those things don't directly address your question, but I had a feeling that you aren't sure of what you want your tracks to sound like yet; which may result in chasing your tail for days and getting frustrated. If I'm wrong about that, just ignore what I wrote

+1. In addition to proper gain staging, having a clear vision of why you want/need to use a plugin what you hope to accomplish with it will help you make a better evaluation of whether or not the plugin is doing what you want it to do.

With that in mind, get in the habit of spending a majority of your time listening for these changes in context as well (i.e., along with other instruments). As backwards as it seems, sometimes a very small change can be difficult to evaluate when the track is soloed, but the difference will immediately pop out at you when you listen to the track in the context of the whole arrangement.

 

[EachHit]

As the other said, it's really important to use the output gain on your plugins so that there's no volume change when you bypass the plugin. This allows you to cleary hear the effect of the plugin and not getting fooled by "louder is better".

And if you're using something like VCC or a tape simulation plugin on every (or a lot of) tracks and you want to compare the cummulative effect of those plugins, you can place them all in the same insert slot in the Pro Tools mixer. Then there's a keyboard modifier (a combination of shift, alt etc.) that allows you to bypass / deactivate ALL plugins in that insert slot at once. I don't know the exact modifier combination out of my head though (it is 2 modifier keys. ctrl+alt or ctrl+windows while clicking on the plugin maybe).

Another trick to compare the effect of the whole plugin chain on a track (multiple plugins):
Duplicate the track, bypass all the plugins on the duplicated track, mark some regions (err clips in PT10) in the arrange window in BOTH tracks, solo (or mute) one of the tracks and then press Shift+S (for solo, if you want to hear the track in isolation) to toggle the solo-state between those two tracks. Or use Shift-M to toggle the mute state if you want to hear it in the context of the whole mix. This allows you to quickly switch back and forth between those tracks instantanously.

PS: VCC's output level adjustment controls are "hidden" in the "Output & VU Settings": Here you have a +/- 1 dB level adjustment slider. Hopefully that's enough for proper level compensation. If not, you'll need to place a Trim plugin right behind VCC and bypass that together with VCC for comparing.

VCC is the plugin I am trying out now.

I put them on the Channel of a Guitar Track. I like the sound when I use the USA and put the Input and Drive to +3. This gains my Track much more than the +1db I can pull down the Output.
Thanks for the Tip. I haven't seen that yet.

Thanks to all you guys for tips. After a few month of recording and mixing I am slowly gaining some experience.
I think I try it with a duplicated Mixbus or Channel.

Is there any good freeware metering? I just tried to put TT Dynamic Range Meter onto the 2 Aux Tracks (one with and one without the Plugin), but if I play with the sliders nothing changes.
Maybe someone knows a good video tutorial on that topic.

@Nimvi
I wish I had a clear Vision. I have got a few songs recorded with my buddy over the past one and a half year by now and most of the "sound design" happened by accident ;-)
Most of the Time I try something out and from time to time I am satisfied.

The Reason why I am looking for plugins is to make the Sound more Real. Some of my mixes seem to sound cleaned up but if played on consumers Stereos it sound dead and kinda cold.

Heavy Greetz

 

[Mago]

You're wanting those plugins for the wrong reason man.

Chances are that if you think they will magically turn your mixes to the better, you miss the hearing experience to really hear a difference in the first place.
It's really hard to hear if you haven't worked with these kind of tools for a while.

You can copy the channel, have one with and one without vcc.
boost the input by the db you want, pull them down on the fader. if you have any other plugins after vcc then use a plugin called "trim" to reduce the dbs you boosted after vcc.

edit: ah well nevermind, RiF explained the same thing way better and more detailed.

 

[EachHit]

You're wanting those plugins for the wrong reason man.

Chances are that if you think they will magically turn your mixes to the better, you miss the hearing experience to really hear a difference in the first place.
It's really hard to hear if you haven't worked with these kind of tools for a while.

You can copy the channel, have one with and one without vcc.
boost the input by the db you want, pull them down on the fader. if you have any other plugins after vcc then use a plugin called "trim" to reduce the dbs you boosted after vcc.

edit: ah well nevermind, RiF explained the same thing way better and more detailed.

As I started out with Cubase I tried a lot freeware Plugins and I really thought some Plugins made the Sound better. But that was before I read a lot about recording. In the Beginning I never thought about listening at the same volume for the processed and unprocessed signal.

I think I really have to train my ears much more and do some treatment to my room to be able to judge what which plugin can do.

As a beginner it's very easy to fall in the Traps of thinking, believing and hearing that some plugins can make the sound way better.

Heavy Greetz

 

[sbwakfk1]

You can just duplicate the track and place the VCC plugin on one of the tracks. Match the volumes with your ear using the faders or using the PhaseScope plugin that comes with PT10. (under stereo tools>phase scope in the plugins menu i think). Then you can put the solo mode into x-or in the options menu and solo each track which will cancel out previous solos

 

[EachHit]

You can just duplicate the track and place the VCC plugin on one of the tracks. Match the volumes with your ear using the faders or using the PhaseScope plugin that comes with PT10. (under stereo tools>phase scope in the plugins menu i think). Then you can put the solo mode into x-or in the options menu and solo each track which will cancel out previous solos

Very good Tip. Thanks a lot.
I wasn't familar with the x-or Mode. This is a Huge help together with Phase Scope.
Together with the duplicated track it makes it much easier to compare the unprocessed and the processed sound.

It seems that I have to do a lot of comparisons to find out which plugin can be helpful and which not.

Heavy Greetz

 

[Jordon]

I know this sounds like a smart-ass remark, but...

...Do the tracks sound better to you in the end?

Don't compare to the original too much, sculpt your sound with the finished product in mind. Ideally, you'd have the "big picture" of the song/record in mind before you hit record, but if it's on-the-fly, twiddle knobs until it "sounds right" in the context of the song. If that's the situation, the original tracks should only factor in as a starting point.

I rarely look back at what I originally had, because it can cloud judgement and make you second-guess what your gut feeling is on the sound of a song.

Just my $.02

 

[EachHit]

I know this sounds like a smart-ass remark, but...

...Do the tracks sound better to you in the end?

Don't compare to the original too much, sculpt your sound with the finished product in mind. Ideally, you'd have the "big picture" of the song/record in mind before you hit record, but if it's on-the-fly, twiddle knobs until it "sounds right" in the context of the song. If that's the situation, the original tracks should only factor in as a starting point.

I rarely look back at what I originally had, because it can cloud judgement and make you second-guess what your gut feeling is on the sound of a song.

Just my $.02

Yesterday I did a complete song mostliy with only the Slate Plugins on each channel.
And even If I can't always hear the better result on every track the final mix sounded in my ears better then other mixes I have done.

It would be much easier judging plugins if I could hear an instant increase in "sound" when I put it on or a loss when bypassing it.

Heavy Greetz

 

[rapucore]

It would be much easier judging plugins if I could hear an instant increase in "sound" when I put it on or a loss when bypassing it.

Use extreme settings.

 

[fdsaevad]

if you're having that hard of a time, and you'll have to forgive me but i really did laugh when i saw the thread title lol... could be your room and monitors aren't set up for optimal listening.

or maybe you're just too new, can't tell the difference. too subtle.

what are you listening through?

 

[Studdy]

if you're having that hard of a time, and you'll have to forgive me but i really did laugh when i saw the thread title lol... could be your room and monitors aren't set up for optimal listening.

or maybe you're just too new, can't tell the difference. too subtle.

what are you listening through?

Coming from the guy who just posted: what's vcc again?

lol

 

[rapucore]

Coming from the guy who just posted: what's vcc again?

lol

 

[EachHit]

if you're having that hard of a time, and you'll have to forgive me but i really did laugh when i saw the thread title lol... could be your room and monitors aren't set up for optimal listening.

or maybe you're just too new, can't tell the difference. too subtle.

what are you listening through?

My Room is definetly not perfect by now. I got another thread running where I ask for advices (including pics) but I haven't got much answers.

I gained some experience but I wouldn't call me much more then a beginner.

My Monitors are Yamaha HS5. Not very Pro but for the beginning they should do the Job.

After testing the Slate Plugins on 3 Songs I think I can tell that the final Result sounds a lot better even if I can't hear what the plugins do to each Track.

Heavy Greetz

 

[AntonioPetrole]

Jesus Christ. This thread.