Howcome so many people still believe in God?

[Mikobass]

Based on the famous philosopher Bart H. Simpson (If you can't prove it, I didn't do it!)
I say : "If you can't proove it, it doesn't exist!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm dying to be a believer, I just need one tangible scientific undeniable proof of Divine existence! I don't even have a preference on which God: Jehovah, Allah or even Santa Claus... But what I'd like is not important, reality is what matters. In our time and age, not only we have no proof, but all indicator presented before me seems to point toward the non-existence of Gods. Therefore I don't understand how people with the same info I have, still choose to believe regardless of how impropable is this outcome may be.

 

[Silver Incubus]

God has never been on the outside, you must look inwards to find divinity

 

[Mikobass]

Well, I'm a scientificaly oriented individual. Therefore, when I look inwards, the only thing I expect to find is what I already found : Myself! And believe me, I'm not a God! What I'm looking for is hard cold evidence.

Help me understand how people justify their faith to their conscience. I'm not trying to judge, It is just such a mystery for me and I'm trying to find answers.

 

[proglodite]

Wouldn't you think that part of faith is not knowing everything about that which is the subject of your faith?

But there are two threads on this topic already, kindly post your question in one of them.

derek, speed, lock please?

 

[Mikobass]

"part of faith is not knowing everything" I'm ok with that, but the thing is that we don't "know" (for sure) anything about God. I mean sure, we have scriptures (Coran, Bible, etc) but they are "man made" as far as we know and relate things that are incoherent and impossible within them.

Take a look at this for examples : http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
just start with the Genesis and go onwards, people living for hundreds of years, Job living in a fish, Noah's arch, ressurections, walk on water, etc etc... God killing all unfaithfull in the old testament and then loving everyone the new. Nice stories and all, but very weak scientific credibility. If so many people have Faith, there must be something more that i'm missing!

Yeah I saw, read and posted on the other treads, but I just felt those treads went on different direction and wanted to re-focus the discussion on this element I cannot grasp : Faith in the illogical and the improbable existence of God. This is only my point of view, I'm not judging anyone.

 

[derek]

I reckon this thread is distinct enough to warrant leaving it as it is. Also, the forum needs an injection of life anyways!

Scientific rigour is not a prerequisite for faith. The basis of faith is often irrational, but that does not make the faith itself irrational, only intangible to those who do not feel it.

 

[Demilich]

One thing science has not and can never prove is that there is not some supernatural entity, force or existence beyond its means of measurement. No matter what we think we know about this world we inhabit, any of that could still be elaborate artifice or simply our own misunderstanding.

 

[speed]

I reckon this thread is distinct enough to warrant leaving it as it is. Also, the forum needs an injection of life anyways!

Scientific rigour is not a prerequisite for faith. The basis of faith is often irrational, but that does not make the faith itself irrational, only intangible to those who do not feel it.

see the kant thread.

 

[speed]

Wouldn't you think that part of faith is not knowing everything about that which is the subject of your faith?

But there are two threads on this topic already, kindly post your question in one of them.

derek, speed, lock please?

well this one is getting all the attention, and like derek said, this forum is desperate for activity,

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Based on the famous philosopher Bart H. Simpson (If you can't prove it, I didn't do it!)
I say : "If you can't proove it, it doesn't exist!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm dying to be a believer, I just need one tangible scientific undeniable proof of Divine existence! I don't even have a preference on which God: Jehovah, Allah or even Santa Claus... But what I'd like is not important, reality is what matters. In our time and age, not only we have no proof, but all indicator presented before me seems to point toward the non-existence of Gods. Therefore I don't understand how people with the same info I have, still choose to believe regardless of how impropable is this outcome may be.

I understand your predicament. I myself am an ex-Christian who was very devout and well read in my faith who lost his faith due to there being way too many obvious falsehoods in the Bible. However while I've certainly doubted the existence and goodness of God since then I've never been able to honestly become an atheist. There are simply too many things in the living world that seem defy naturalistic explanations. I won't go into detail as I'm sure you must know some of the arguments. Furthermore I've always found the First Cause argument to be pretty convincing. However experience seems to confirm that God is not getting involved in our lives directly, working miracles or answering prayers. This is why my philosophy is most closely in line with Deism. I admit my opinions could be wrong, I don't know for certain but I think I'm at least looking in the right direction.

 

[Mikobass]

Also to clarify, after reading a little on Deism, I am not saying an unknown god cannot exist, the possibilities are there. After all science was created by man on the basis of the "try and error" method and observations, so it's not perfect nor is it omnisicent. Science is merely a learning process. I'm just saying that if you cannot prove that something exist, why would you still take it for granted and base all your life on it like so many people do on this planet? Shouldn't we take for granted that it does not exist until proven otherwise?

Now, if you just say, I think a god does exist somewhere and is the cause for the universe, that's find with me! It's just an opinion, it is worth as much as my own. But if you pray everyday and go to church every week, this is what my brain cannot grasp. That means you take it for granted, you aknowledge it as being reality regardless of all the knowledge gain by humanity over the last centuries. That makes as much sens from my point of view then a guy that would quit is job because he bought a lotery ticket.

 

[Anvil]

I'm God. Prove I'm not.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Also to clarify, after reading a little on Deism, I am not saying an unknown god cannot exist, the possibilities are there. After all science was created by man on the basis of the "try and error" method and observations, so it's not perfect nor is it omnisicent. Science is merely a learning process. I'm just saying that if you cannot prove that something exist, why would you still take it for granted and base all your life on it like so many people do on this planet? Shouldn't we take for granted that it does not exist until proven otherwise?

Now, if you just say, I think a god does exist somewhere and is the cause for the universe, that's find with me! It's just an opinion, it is worth as much as my own. But if you pray everyday and go to church every week, this is what my brain cannot grasp. That means you take it for granted, you aknowledge it as being reality regardless of all the knowledge gain by humanity over the last centuries. That makes as much sens from my point of view then a guy that would quit is job because he bought a lotery ticket.

I agree. Actually there is a lot that science cannot prove yet things don't make sense without them. We cannot acutally prove that humans evolved from apes, yet all the evidence we have seems to confirm this idea. In other words without this theory we are left with a lot of evidence that doesn't make sense. Perhaps the same is true with God. I don't know for certain just my opinion.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

I'm God. Prove I'm not.

Define the word "God" and we'll talk. According to Hindu's you are acutally correct. According to the Christian definition of God you are not, etc.

 

[Mikobass]

In science, the burden of the proof is always on the side of the party making the affirmation. In this case, you say you are god, you have the burden of proving it. Until you do so, that affirmation is not true and I do not have to prove anything. That is the scientific approach.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

In science, the burden of the proof is always on the side of the party making the affirmation. In this case, you say you are god, you have the burden of proving it. Until you do so, that affirmation is not true and I do not have to prove anything. That is the scientific approach.

That's true. But let's look at my point: prove that humans evolved from apes. It can't technically be done, you'd have to SHOW an ape evolving from an ape to actually prove it which is of course currently impossible. However we do have other lines of evidence (fossils, DNA) that really only make sense if humans did in fact evolve from apes. My point was that without a Creator of some sorts some things in our world/universe don't make much sense. Is this proof? No, but it seems to indicate to me at least that a Creator does exist. Could I be wrong? Absolutely but it's just my opinion.

 

[Mikobass]

Exactly, it's an opinion and I totally respect that!

For man being a descendant of the ape, I also agree that we cannot remove all doubt (yet? time will/might tell...) and be 100% sure. But since all the facts we have point in the same direction, it is logical to assume it must be the case. That's why we still call it a theory and not a certitude.

 

[Anvil]

It depends on what sort of God you believe might exist. In my case, I believe something (either accidentally or purposely) planted the seeds to start a universe, only to have it grow beyond their control, and hence, after millions of years, we are here. I don't believe that there is a superior being governing us or helping us in any which way or form.

To believe in the beliefs of Christianity, is to substitute understanding of our lives and surroundings to a belief that all will be fulfilled when we die. Of course generally speaking.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

It depends on what sort of God you believe might exist. In my case, I believe something (either accidentally or purposely) planted the seeds to start a universe, only to have it grow beyond their control, and hence, after millions of years, we are here. I don't believe that there is a superior being governing us or helping us in any which way or form.

To believe in the beliefs of Christianity, is to substitute understanding of our lives and surroundings to a belief that all will be fulfilled when we die. Of course generally speaking.

Personally I don't believe God is getting involved in our lives. Does that mean our lives have no purpose/value to God? Don't know.

 

[Akirahito]

Religion serves to help people deal with issues such as dying (fear of death and not wanting to believe that there's nothing after death, i.e. afterlife), and to also answer questions like "why are we/am I here?" and "what is my/our purpose?" When I was writing my senior thesis on Religious Theory, I chose to concentrate on, albeit very small, Karl Marx's theories on religion. He stated that religion served two purposes, one to give the Proletariat false hope, and two, to self-validate the Bourgeois. Marx felt, therefore, that religion was detrimental to achieving an "ultimate" utopian society. For more on this topic, read Marx and Engel's "The Communist Manifesto."

I think it's important to remember one small thing: Religion and Deities are real to those who believe in their Reality.