Ideas how to trigger samples live?

[Downtime]

Hey there,
I need some help on a live issue:

We, this means my band Downtime (Germany), are actually recording our 2nd CD. No problems on that one. But we´re using some synthie-sample-stuff that we want to have on stage, too, for the first time and haven´t find a good solution to do that yet.
So I think there are two ways:
On-The-Point-Triggering (Drummer hitting triggerpad, soundstation playing sample). Because of two many different samples etc. we don´t prefer this one.
Ideal would be:
Kind of a simple two-track sampleplayer, while one track is the click of the song that leads to the in-ears of our drummer and on the other track the signal that leads to the console/PA. So it needs to have routable outputs.
Due to the fact that we, like most musicians, don´t have too much money to spend on such things, so the kind of Digital-Workstation with air-condition, toaster and Burrito-stove would definitly bash our account.
So there I need your ideas.
When we played with Illdisposed in 2006 they used some construction using an I-Pod and stuff, but I can´t remember how they made it play a click for the drummer and the sample-stuff for the audience.

Any ideas?

Thanks very much in advance,

Seb // Downtime (myspace.com/downtimemetal)

 

[James Murphy]

you don't need more than a laptop and a small audio interface... is that really so expensive? If a job is worth doing, it's worth doing right.... bite the bullet and buy a small Macbook Pro (12" or 15")... load it with DP and get either an 828mkII or Traveler interface by MOTU.... you don't need more than this. it will cost from $2K-$3K and if you take your business seriously this expense is insignificant. it's the same set up (Macbook Pro, DP, 828mkII) that In Flames use live to play their background samples and keys.

hell, add a midi interface to this set up and you can add all your guitar amp channel and effects switching to each song sequence and your guitarists will never have to step on pedals live again.... seriously, for just about $200 or less added to the cost listed above.

 

[Downtime]

Since I own a laptop (no Mac but it should have enough power) it wouldn´t be that expensive, so it´s a good idea. But since we are most of all touring on a low level it would be pretty risky to always take 3000 bucks on the road. Besides that, the rest of Equipment we use (Peavey 6505, Framus Cobra, no special or digital fx, etc.) isn´t even midi-backed, so I fear it wouldn´t legitimate the afford.

But a nice hint at all, thanks!

 

[broken81]

how does the drummer make keys and samples play with laptop? he reach over and hit the space bar to start song and then after each song close session and open new one??

 

[Downtime]

how does the drummer make keys and samples play with laptop? he reach over and hit the space bar to start song and then after each song close session and open new one??

Good point!
you could take all songs of the live-set into one session and set some hitpoints to switch to, or even press play once and then let the session run it´s way... but then there´s no room for improvisation or stuff left.

 

[James Murphy]

no no.... your click track is part of a sequence and all your samples just play in time.... one output of the audio interface plays the click to the drummer.. then you take two outputs (for a stereo pair) and plug it into the snake so it feeds all your backing tracks to the FOHE (front of house engineer)... they just play, in time with the click... no need for the drummer to trigger anything. this is exactly how In Flames, DAATH, and many other bands do it.... and it's well worth it whether you follow the midi idea for amp and FX switching or not.

 

[broken81]

OK I'm still a bit lost (sorry I'm retarded today) I get that the drummer plays to a click track from program and the outputs go to board for sound and samples are set up in time so they just play but my question is.....

How does the drummer start each song? And how does he change each song cause you use different samples and stuff and different tempo on different songs. Would you have to have a bunch of different sessions in protools or whatever program you use and keep switching after each song?

 

[Downtime]

How does the drummer start each song?

That would be my question to.

The tempo/different-sample-thing is no problem, as you can have the samples as ready-to-go .wavs in any DAW and use the DAW´s flexible click-track to manage different song structures / tempo-changes, etc.

 

[James Murphy]

two methods with DP...

1. all songs in one session, lined up end to end.. drummer starts and stops songs with spacebar (this method works for Pro Tools as well).. at any point you can stop or just continue to the next song.

2. a DP only method: use the Chunks feature... each song is loaded into one session as an individual Chunk. drummer can advance to the next Chunk either via clicking the mouse on the "advance to next chunk" button or he can rig a trigger to operate that feather.... i would go with the mouse click.

if your band has a keyboardist he may perhaps be a better choice to operate the DAW, but he'll have to have good line-of-sight with the drummer to be sure he's ready for the count-offs. the obvious danger with the drummer doing is flying drumsticks... but strategic positioning of the laptop can minimize this risk.

i strongly suggest a Macbook Pro... they are the toughest made laptops on the market that i have ever seen.... they hold up on tour. i've dropped mine onto concrete and it still works (though i don't recommend trying that yourself). and it's not likely to ever freeze, but it's not a perfect world so i suggest to be able to play your songs without samples and click, just in case... especially since won't like be able to afford a redundant back-up system.

 

[Downtime]

but it's not a perfect world so i suggest to be able to play your songs without samples and click, just in case...

Due to my non-ideal english-skills and the non-existent ability of the WWW to project emotions into written sentences I didn´t get if this was a biting "But pussies like you better don´t try" or if you just meant what you said If the latter is the case... sorry for this allegation
Edit: Sorry for that one, I missed the "... to be able to ..." in your sentence and got it like "Because nothing is perfect better don´t even try to use samples, dude" . My fault! Of course we´ll stay able to perform them withouth any technical support, that´s where we come from.

I just got an answer from the Illdisposed-Guys... it simply was this setup:

They panned the samples they needed on one side of a stereo-track, the click-track on the other. Then they connected a stereo - to - 2 mono - cable to the Ipod and gave the click to their drummer and the samples to the FOH, that´s it. Pretty easy.

 

[James Murphy]

Due to my non-ideal english-skills and the non-existent ability of the WWW to project emotions into written sentences I didn´t get if this was a biting "But pussies like you better don´t try" or if you just meant what you said If the latter is the case... sorry for this allegation.

you have got to be kidding me with that. i'm not going to dignify that silliness with any further response regarding it. Besides, your English skills seem fine.

I just got an answer from the Illdisposed-Guys... it simply was this setup:

They panned the samples they needed on one side of a stereo-track, the click-track on the other. Then they connected a stereo - to - 2 mono - cable to the Ipod and gave the click to their drummer and the samples to the FOH, that´s it. Pretty easy.

iPods aren't reliable enough to base a show on in my opinion, and Richard Christy learned this the hard way in Iced Earth. they eventually followed my suggestion to get a laptop system going (yes, they asked me). also your samples will be mono in this setup... if that's not a problem and you don't mind taking the risk of basing your show on a small mp3 player that was meant for casual music listening, then that method should be fine for you.

 

[Downtime]

you have got to be kidding me with that. i'm not going to dignify that silliness with any further response regarding it. Besides, your English skills seem fine.

Please read the "edit" I´ve done to that one. I even tried to put it right via PM but your storage-limit seems full. Again, sorry!

if that's not a problem and you don't mind taking the risk of basing your show on a small mp3 player that was meant for casual music listening, then go for it.

If I wanted to I would simply have waited for the drummer´s response to the Ipod-solution, and not posted it here. So I will seriously think about using a Laptop in this case, even if I´m not sure if my own one runs stable enough (especially with using the sequencer we used to record our actual CD -> Cubase [which will be my last time to use that one by the way]).

Seb

 

[James Murphy]

Please read the "edit" I´ve done to that one. I even tried to put it right via PM but your storage-limit seems full. Again, sorry!

s'alright. good luck with whichever method you choose.

 

[Downtime]

Thank you. I hope I can still ask for your knowledge if there may be some questions in future.

 

[Deus.exe]

My band is using a similar setup to the one you said that Illdisposed use.
CD player->Left: Behringer mixer (used as headphone amp), right:dignal to FOH.
Yeps it's ghetto alright.

Grüß aus Kölle!

 

[Lee_B]

Okay, I was going to start a new thread but I searched and there's some good info here.

For my own needs I'll need at least 8 outputs I think. So a MacBook with a decent external interface with the correct number of outs should do the trick? I'm still slightly wary of relying on traditional hard drives though. I remember Fostex used to make a 8/8 rack mounted hard drive recorder, but is there a comparible one on the market now that uses solid state memory instead?

What would be a decent back up, something that allows at least three channels (stereo output plus click) that can maybe run synced along side the main unit just in case the worst happens (but is considerably cheaper than a Mac!)?

James, I'm very interested in knowing how the guitar side works with the midi. Bear with me for being a bit dumb as the above made sense, but only sort-of . Would this still work if you use traditional multiple pedals, or would it only work with a midi enabled multi-effects unit or via some sort of Guitar Rig type software?

Cheers

Lee

 

[MetalWorks]

I dont know if you can order it from Germany, but American Musical Supply is offering their Payment Plan on Apple again.

They have Macbooks starting at $1099 which is 5 monthly payments of $219.

 

[TheDude]

I have nothing against Macs, they are fantastic machines, but...

I've been using PC's live for a couple of years now. Like I've said in another thread, any laptop today will do the trick. You can buy a PC for about €700 (~$1000) that will do the job flawlessly. When it breaks, buy a new one. Bring a backup DVD with the necessary programs, drivers and sounds/arrangements in case of a "Mr. Murphy-drop". A decent soundcard (RME, M-Audio, E-MU) does the rest.

My rig is just that, but we use the RME multiface live and Digiface in the studio, so I'm using a PCMCIA card. Two channels of loops and two channels of "keyboard" (pads, noizes, guitars). I use Cubase with one NI Kontakt as only VSTi with on song per track/midichannel. ATM, I have 23 songs loaded at all time, depending on the setlist. 700mbs of samples )

Oh, one more thing... The first laptop I used was an Acer (ghetto anyone?). It's still working after two and a half year and 100+ gigs and festivals, but I bought a LG this autumn because I wanted to play computer games on the tour Yes, it works fine. One of our Roadies had bad luck though, when his brand new Macbook got squashed between a door and a couch...

Let's face it, a Laptop running XP at 1ghz 512mb Ram is more than enough to do whatever you want to do when it comes to backing tracks, samples and whatever.

Good luck.

 

[Metaltastic]

Would this still work if you use traditional multiple pedals, or would it only work with a midi enabled multi-effects unit or via some sort of Guitar Rig type software?

It would, but you'd have to get some sort of multi-FX-loops unit with a switcher; Voodoo Lab (www.voodoolab.com) makes the GCX, though I'm sure there are others. Basically, the MIDI control switches each loop (or a combo of them) in and out of the signal chain, and it's one (or more) pedals per loop.

 

[Sahnduhrs]

I really like this thread. I would like to know more in detail, specifically Jesus Hitler's FX control. I grasp the interface/FOH connection and I'm thinking it's an awesome idea! However, I was thinking about ways to do this (before I found this thread) And I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool if vocal effects come come on and on in the project as it plays? We wouldn't have to hit a switch or have a crowded floor. So I would like a more detail instruction on what I would need to buy, how to make it work, what software to use, and what is DP? I understand it is a program but what is the full name? Thanks!