i'm against death penalty, but...

~metal_maiden~ said:
Since when are killers sane? :err:
well, if i suddenly discover in canada i have an old, rich aunt i had never known of (so i don't care for her) and i'm her only heiress and i kill her because i happen to desperately need the money, well, i guess i'd be perfectly sane to do so (maybe not too smart 'cause the police would suspect me immediately).
and that's just one of the countless examples i could have quoted.


FailingAcension said:
And how did she get un-insane?
maybe she stopped going to the church? :tickled:
on a more serious note, it can happen that someone wasn't in complete possession of their faculties when commiting the crime, and is back to being perfectly sane afterwards. only, i do not think this is that case in point.
 
mourningstar said:
on a more serious note, it can happen that someone wasn't in complete possession of their faculties when commiting the crime, and is back to being perfectly sane afterwards. only, i do not think this is that case in point.
the problem in this case, and similar cases, is how much emphasis the prosecutors and the jury will put on a possible factual truth that is impossible to prove but almost as difficult to disprove. obviously, i'm not referring to whether this woman was indeed told by god to murder her children or not - as this is completely irrelevant in court - but to whether she did hallucinate some such thing or not.
speaking in a rather abstract and formal way, if the hallucinations have indeed taken place, she can't be found guilty of first degree murder because she was not of a sound mind while committing the crime: it's next to automatic to assume seeing/hearing things that are not there takes criminal responsibility from your actions away from you. if, on the other hand, the hallucinations idea is the posthumous fabrication of her rational mind, then there is no case for insanity.
of course there is no way in hell a third party can ever be certain about a particular experience that is not tangible from the outside, and this is what makes the whole scenario so prone to abuse on the part of prosecutors and lawyers alike. yet i contend that in theory the principle is quite sound, and it's only the application to any specific situation that is lacking.

as for the death penalty, i'm not strongly against it, but if i were to pick a case for, it certainly wouldn't be this one: from sentencing to death this woman, there would come absolutely no social benefit, since: (a) she's certainly not likely to kill again, having exhausted the number of minors who will ever be in her grasp and being extremely unlikely to take it out on anyone who can defend himself; (b) killing her to set an example for and deter thousands of other moms who might at some point decide to kill their children is ridiculous, because it's obvious that if you're such a basketcase you're not going to worry about the lethal injection or the electric chair waiting for you. this just leaves us with revenge, but since - unfortunately - the closest relative for the victims was the culprit herself, i pretty much doubt that the family of the kids in the person of their mother would feel relieved by seeing herself put to death. so why killing the woman? just toss her into prison or a lunatic asylum and forget about her: there's nothing more for society to protect here, society already lost its battle when she killed her kids.
 
Life Sucks said:
So what if she was temporarily insane. I don't think insane people should be sentenced any differently.
that's a legitimate opinion, but as things are now, the whole of the western world basically assumes that criminal responsibility applies only if people knew what they were doing, otherwise whatever takes place (even 40 years in a room with padded walls) is not "punishment". possibly therapy, or sometimes protection.
 
rahvin said:
that's a legitimate opinion, but as things are now, the whole of the western world basically assumes that criminal responsibility applies only if people knew what they were doing, otherwise whatever takes place (even 40 years in a room with padded walls) is not "punishment". possibly therapy, or sometimes protection.
I suppose you can look at it that way. Another thing I just thought of is that serial killers are obviously insane, and they get sentenced to death or life in prison. However, if one only exhibits "temporary insanity," like this woman did, they are tried differently.
 
Life Sucks said:
I suppose you can look at it that way. Another thing I just thought of is that serial killers are obviously insane, and they get sentenced to death or life in prison. However, if one only exhibits "temporary insanity," like this woman did, they are tried differently.
courtroom definition of insanity is (sadly?) different than the one we're used to. it doesn't really matter if you are into eating human flesh for breakfast as long as you show consistent rational behaviour, such as you don't claim to have shared some with your imaginary friend bob. plus, almost everything is considered less nutty than public mentions of god. a mostly religious community might even accept you being sane and inspired by the devil in your heinous acts, but heaven forbid (exactly) that you start saying god is involved.
still, some serial killers did get away with it by pleading insanity (if i'm not mistaken, the "son of sam" guy at some point said the neighbour's dog told him to kill, or something as wacky as that). what gives with most serial killers is the fact that they covered up their tracks and showed complete control in trying to escape the consequences of their crimes. i suppose this woman here was apprehended soon after the fact, and she didn't even try to hide the bodies. this goes a long way to convince people you were without control.
 
Psychonaut said:
It's not like her husband didn't pick up on any signs from her. He should be in trouble for not turning her in when she started going nuts. Unless, of course, he's a fruitcake too.
If husbands turned in their wives to the authorities for acting like they're insane every married woman would be in prison, and every guy would be bankrupt from alimony payments.
 
Wandrail said:
If husbands turned in their wives to the authorities for acting like they're insane every married woman would be in prison, and every guy would be bankrupt from alimony payments.
have you ever asked yourself how many women go bananas because of their husbands?


rahvin said:
speaking in a rather abstract and formal way, if the hallucinations have indeed taken place, she can't be found guilty of first degree murder because she was not of a sound mind while committing the crime
*lifts her hand* i have a question, mr.demi-lawyer.
we are not talking about the case where allucinations are caused by the subject himself/herself, are we?
 
mourningstar said:
*lifts her hand* i have a question, mr.demi-lawyer.
we are not talking about the case where allucinations are caused by the subject himself/herself, are we?
no. for instance, if you got yourself completely shitfaced, or high on mushrooms, then you're responsible for whatever criminal activity you might have undertaken during the time when you were not rational. clearly, if someone got you drunk, you're again relieved of the burden of responsibility, and so on.
however, any kind of mental alteration that cannot be traced back directly to an agent is considered not to be a matter of choice. so brainwashing yourself with 24/7 live footage of cannibalism is usually not enough to prove a conscious will to induce deviant behaviours on the self.