Influence of Classical music on metal?

[Boiorix]

its not even close to a fugue! the only "complex" thing going on is the part that is harmonized...

The fugue isn't a complex form, it's just a way of structuring improvisation. You take a melody, break it into its constituent parts, then elaborate it harmonically in what, in essence, is a series of call-and-response segments. It's not supposed to be radically complex, it's supposed to give an organist a means of improvising a prelude on the spot before the start of the worship service.

 

[MasterOLightning]

I know this has been said before, but it is important to distinguish what is meant by classical music. If referring to the specific classical period characterized by Mozart and Beethoven, then there's not a whole lot of influence. If referring to orchestral music in general, then there are similarities, but maybe not direct influence. If we're talking about the Romantic period, then there's some influence, largely in themes and what the composition aims to do for the listener.

 

[Burkhard]

I don´t know about metal in general, but the German thrash metal band Mekong Delta has covered classical pieces (or parts of them) on nearly each of their albums, starting with "The Hut Of Baba Yaga" on their debut and "The Gnome" on "The Music Of Erich Zann" (later on they did a record of Mussorgsky´s entire "Pictures At An Exhibition"). The title track on "Dances Of Death" is composed as a rondo and this album contains a cover version of Mussorgsky´s "Night On A Bare Mountain". The album "Visions Fugitives" contains a "Suite For Group And Orchestra" (a composition by bandleader Ralph Hubert himself, execpt of one part). Their current comeback album "Lurking Fear" contains a cover version of the "Allegro" from Shostakovich´s symphony no. 10 and two instrumental pieces titled "Allegro Furioso" and "Moderato" (both composed by Ralph Hubert himself).

 

[Thoth-Amon]

The fugue isn't a complex form, it's just a way of structuring improvisation. You take a melody, break it into its constituent parts, then elaborate it harmonically in what, in essence, is a series of call-and-response segments. It's not supposed to be radically complex, it's supposed to give an organist a means of improvising a prelude on the spot before the start of the worship service.

It involves counterpoint... multiple melodies playing against each other... sometimes as many as six voices... so yes that is complex. And the Slayer example has nothing in common with the actual structure of a fugue.

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

Well Rhoads was classically influenced and it showed in some of the songs he did with Ozzy... and he was taking alot of classical guitar lessons in his final years with Ozzy while out on the road... anyways what people need to remember is classically "influenced" or incorporation of classical music which imo there is alot in metal (all metal genres not just BM) and not a cover of a classical piece...

 

[Scourge of God]

It involves counterpoint... multiple melodies playing against each other... sometimes as many as six voices... so yes that is complex. And the Slayer example has nothing in common with the actual structure of a fugue.

"Metal Storm" has three independent 'voices' and the bass line is almost pure counterpoint. Where have you been?

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Doesn't a fugue involve more than a one bar melody being repeated while the underlying chord changes?

 

[Scourge of God]

When fully elaborated yes - though in this case, that's not what happens. "Metal Storm" takes on a modified call-and-response form in which a dominant melody is elaborated in repetition by an independent melody played on the second guitar and rhythmic counterpoint in the bassline. Like a lot of metal, the construction is essentially modal so the 'underlying chords' function as ornamentation rather than as the backbone of the tonal structure. Basically, it's a technique you see in a lot of Baroque composition - polyphony that resolves into homeophony at the end of phrases (differing from the medieval/Renaissance tendency to resolve polyphonic phrasing in unison, though that particular style is prevalent in later black metal).

 

[thisisaformicatable]

When fully elaborated yes - though in this case, that's not what happens. "Metal Storm" takes on a modified call-and-response form in which a dominant melody is elaborated in repetition by an independent melody played on the second guitar and rhythmic counterpoint in the bassline. Like a lot of metal, the construction is essentially modal so the 'underlying chords' function as ornamentation rather than as the backbone of the tonal structure. Basically, it's a technique you see in a lot of Baroque composition - polyphony that resolves into homeophony at the end of phrases (differing from the medieval/Renaissance tendency to resolve polyphonic phrasing in unison, though that particular style is prevalent in later black metal).

(I'm assuming we're talking about the 9/8 riff) Ok so the "dominant melody" is the one that starts off the section? And the "independent melody" we're talking about is wherever the same melody is being played at a different interval simultaneously? i.e. harmonizing the riff = an independent melody? And the "rhythmic counterpoint in the bass line" we're talking about are the A-F-G whole notes?

Are you saying the similar section in, say, "Crionics" is a fugue as well?

 

[Thoth-Amon]

(I'm assuming we're talking about the 9/8 riff) Ok so the "dominant melody" is the one that starts off the section? And the "independent melody" we're talking about is wherever the same melody is being played at a different interval simultaneously? i.e. harmonizing the riff = an independent melody? And the "rhythmic counterpoint in the bass line" we're talking about are the A-F-G whole notes?

Are you saying the similar section in, say, "Crionics" is a fugue as well?

precisely that's exactly what i said... its just a harmonized riff with a bassline... NOT a fugue

 

[Jreg]

(I'm assuming we're talking about the 9/8 riff) Ok so the "dominant melody" is the one that starts off the section? And the "independent melody" we're talking about is wherever the same melody is being played at a different interval simultaneously? i.e. harmonizing the riff = an independent melody? And the "rhythmic counterpoint in the bass line" we're talking about are the A-F-G whole notes?

Are you saying the similar section in, say, "Crionics" is a fugue as well?

Yeah, calling that a fugue is kind of "overselling" it.

Also---and I'm no classical aficionado, so excuse my ignorance if I've got this all wrong---didn't certain eras of classical have a rule against parallel movement of both parts in a harmonized melody? Not that that would really prove much, but I thought it might be worth noting when considering how much metal uses exactly that sort of parallel harmony.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Yeah, calling that a fugue is kind of "overselling" it.

Also---and I'm no classical aficionado, so excuse my ignorance if I've got this all wrong---didn't certain eras of classical have a rule against parallel movement of both parts in a harmonized melody? Not that that would really prove much, but I thought it might be worth noting when considering how much metal uses exactly that sort of parallel harmony.

yes you are correct... there was a 'rule' against moving in parallel fifths pretty much all the way through the classical era if i am not mistaken

 

[Jreg]

Right...I think the harmony in "Metal Storm" is actually in fifths if I remember correctly.

 

[Scourge of God]

(I'm assuming we're talking about the 9/8 riff) Ok so the "dominant melody" is the one that starts off the section? And the "independent melody" we're talking about is wherever the same melody is being played at a different interval simultaneously? i.e. harmonizing the riff = an independent melody? And the "rhythmic counterpoint in the bass line" we're talking about are the A-F-G whole notes?

The second guitar line at times moves in parallel (during the intro), but not through entirety of the piece. Your ears are simply defective if that's what you're hearing: after the opening bars and initial arpeggiated riff, there are clearly a different melodic lines featuring different intervals and a different rhythm scheme, and the bass line uses yet another rhythmic and tonal pattern again, filling in counterpoint against the dominant melody. Some of these patterns are repeated in modified form during the 'Face the Slayer' segment (the polyphonic element is actually more pronounced here), though much of this subtly subverts what came before (the final arpeggio, which initially seems to move in parallel, but alternates between consonance and dissonance throughout its descent is, frankly, brilliant). Sure, it's not a fugue in the most rigidly formulaic sense, but it mimics the internal workings of a fugue in miniature, and is a pretty clearly baroque inspired piece. Listen to the opening minute or two of that most familiar of fugues (Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in Dm") the similarities in structure and technique are pretty immediately apparent. It's nowhere near as complex as Bach, but, really, what is?

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Are we talking about the same song? Aren't we just talking about the 9/8 section (0:18-1:10)? Where is there an "arpeggiated riff" in this section? Please point out at which bars you hear "different melodic lines featuring different intervals and a different rhythm scheme", changes in the bass/rhythm guitar, etc., I honestly just listened to the section like five times in a row and don't hear any of this.

And what about "Crionics"? I really think we could find a lot of "fugues" in metal songs by your standards, but maybe that's what you're getting at.