Integration has failed

[infoterror]

It seems to me that the integration of Africans into North American culture has failed. For the most part, they live in ghettoes from which there is no escape. With an average IQ of 89, they are often unable to participate in the kind of first-world activities required by "white" society. Further, white people tend to prefer their own, and thus there is never a "safe" place for black people where there's not some white dude thinking, "Please, God, get these @#$%@#$@#$ out of here." After Katrina they even suspect their government might be against them. Some of us feel that evolution is not linear but that each group occupies a place within it, and that Africans are not a fit for our kind of culture. Even more, we believe that they would be better served by having autonomy, as they could pick their own leaders and make their own cultural choices without worrying about a cynical, sometimes sarcastic, often well-meaningly condescending white population looking over their shoulders. Is this cruelty, to think this, or simply recognizing reality and trying to do right by the people involved? I would not like to hurt African-Americans; I've known a lot of good ones and more than a handful of smart ones. I don't want to offend them. But if integration is failing, I'd like to try something else before we create a certain kind of hell.

 

[Keltoi]

To a large degree integration has failed. I don't know the reasons or the answers, but I tend to look at the black "leadership" in the U.S., who are constantly reinforcing the victim mentality into black America. Yes, there are racial hurdles in society, but no more for blacks than any other ethnic minority in the U.S. Hard to say what the answer to the problem would be.

 

[entanglement]

The last thing you would want is the black community (combined with other minorities under the name of 'the minority group') wanting to form their own government and consequently wanting to decide for their own group of people seperately. What could further even follow is geographical divisions.. the minorities wanting their very own state or a "piece" of the US to themselves.

2 possible ways to fix this, as I see it:

• Remove racism from its roots.. which is pretty much impossible (and would take something QUITE upsetting to be shoved into the 'possible' region).
• Accept facts and think of some other formula for coexistance with them (like infoterror suggested).

Difficult.

 

[hibernal_dream]

What about removal of race itself? With increasing interracial breeding, could we see eventually see genetic convergence leading to creation of a single "gray race" inhabiting the world? This would certainly solve the racial integration problem but would it lead to other problems?

 

[Norsemaiden]

What about removal of race itself? With increasing interracial breeding, could we see eventually see genetic convergence leading to creation of a single "gray race" inhabiting the world? This would certainly solve the racial integration problem but would it lead to other problems?

This kind of race mixing is only possible if it is enforced by man made rules. The way things could happen is that gradual race mixing continues to occur, as long as civilisation holds together. However the social effect of this race mixing will be the deterioration and end of civilisation itself. At this point natural selection would return with a vengeance. The sickest elements would die, and a process of groups becoming ethnically bound into tribes based on their closeness of kinship would again occur, these would be led by warlords. About a minimum of 50,000 years later we could have got back to the same racial situation that is now in existence. But this time we might have learned that racial separation works better for everyone.

These "gray" people already exist in Latin America. The one thing lack of race has been demonstrated to do is to void any sense of altruism. Sexual loyalty is a total joke to them, as is love. It is perfectly normal to steal your friend's girlfriend, and for the females to all seek to mate with the toughest male (like the local pimp). The lack of altruism means that everyone is inherently selfish. No common venture can be achieved, so most people tend to behave aimlessly and try to make easy money out of drugs and sex. They are characterised by cowardice and cruelty. Their best hope is to flee from themselves to another land (guess where?) and then they degrade that place to their own third world level.

The presence of the "gray" people totally destroys any adherence to a "social contract" and society degenerates to one based on money and nastiness. If your great grandparents came back to see how it is now, they would notice the change this way. But it happens too gradually for any one generation to properly notice.

When things are going like that people select themselves out and try to create an identity for themselves, such as a religious sect. It is like an attempt (subconsciously) to create a seperate genepool. Kladogenesis is, after all, the basis of evolution, not hybridisation.

It's a historical freak in terms of life on earth in the geological record that hybridisation is happening now. For example, native plants are suffering hybridisation simply because garden centres can now sell exotic plant subspecies imported from anywhere in the world.

 

[speed]

It seems to me that the integration of Africans into North American culture has failed. For the most part, they live in ghettoes from which there is no escape. With an average IQ of 89, they are often unable to participate in the kind of first-world activities required by "white" society. Further, white people tend to prefer their own, and thus there is never a "safe" place for black people where there's not some white dude thinking, "Please, God, get these @#$%@#$@#$ out of here." After Katrina they even suspect their government might be against them. Some of us feel that evolution is not linear but that each group occupies a place within it, and that Africans are not a fit for our kind of culture. Even more, we believe that they would be better served by having autonomy, as they could pick their own leaders and make their own cultural choices without worrying about a cynical, sometimes sarcastic, often well-meaningly condescending white population looking over their shoulders. Is this cruelty, to think this, or simply recognizing reality and trying to do right by the people involved? I would not like to hurt African-Americans; I've known a lot of good ones and more than a handful of smart ones. I don't want to offend them. But if integration is failing, I'd like to try something else before we create a certain kind of hell.

Wonderful thread and post.

Im particularly bothered by the intergration of African Americans into our basic society. It has been a total failure, and in fact, seems to be going the other way--African Americans have all but totally rejected American society, and have created their own.

Segregation has gotten worse in the last 40 years. Public schools and entire neighborhoods are 95% African American--and it only seems to be getting worse. It occurs in Universities too, where African American profs have seperate meetings from the rest of the faculty, African American students hang out in the African American halls and activity rooms, and take African American studies classes. Not to mention Section 8 programs are limited to urban boundaries and specific neihgborhoods--increasing segregation even more.

Their culture doesnt value education, property, marriage, proper child-rearing, cleanliness--i could go on. So it only perpetuates poverty, macho thuggishness, and violence. I worked for two months as the interim economic development director for an all-black village, and in college i did pest control primarily in Section 8 apartments; I was continually shocked how bad things were, and how little cooperation and how much fear and distrust was present in these communities.

And as you state Infoterror, they have every right to be suspicious of whites. Im always amused by ultra-liberals who try to "help" these poor African Americans, and do so by being as patronizing and condescending
as humanly possible. But whats the solution? I have no idea. I know in Cincinnati, where I'm from, and used to live, African Americans have ruined much of the city to the point, theres almost no one left (Cincy is losing pop faster than any city in the Country, even worse than Detroit).

 

[entanglement]

What about removal of race itself? With increasing interracial breeding, could we see eventually see genetic convergence leading to creation of a single "gray race" inhabiting the world? This would certainly solve the racial integration problem but would it lead to other problems?

Possible but that could lead to other problems such as 'percentage purity' (chemistry students will find this 'chuckle-causing'). People telling others how they're purer than them because they're more white than they are? We have just two groups of people in the US right now but who knows, if this happens we might end up having a more gradient distribution of racism: infinite races.

These "gray" people already exist in Latin America. The one thing lack of race has been demonstrated to do is to void any sense of altruism. Sexual loyalty is a total joke to them, as is love. It is perfectly normal to steal your friend's girlfriend, and for the females to all seek to mate with the toughest male (like the local pimp). The lack of altruism means that everyone is inherently selfish. No common venture can be achieved, so most people tend to behave aimlessly and try to make easy money out of drugs and sex. They are characterised by cowardice and cruelty. Their best hope is to flee from themselves to another land (guess where?) and then they degrade that place to their own third world level.

Are you talking about Latin America? The condition cannot be THAT bad..

 

[Norsemaiden]

Land where women are killers' prey

Guatemala is a hunting ground for brutal gangs who feel free to rape and murder

Jo Tuckman in Guatemala City
Sunday June 6, 2004

Such murders have become common in Guatemala, where there are now daily reports of killings but rarely news of any arrests. Now, in a new report, the country's human rights ombudsman, Sergio Morales, has found that 424 women were murdered last year, but only 22 of these cases were being seriously investigated. 'The only thing proved so far is that these murders have one common denominator: impunity,' he told reporters.
Such unchecked misogyny, with no clear motive, is reminiscent of the situation in Ciudad Juárez, the Mexican city just over the border from Texas where around 100 serial-type sexual murders over the last decade have become an international cause célèbre. In Guatemala, there is as yet little evidence of 'profile' killings, but the huge numbers of victims, and the brutality involved, indicate that this too is no ordinary crime problem.

And it seems to be getting worse. According to police figures, 30 per cent more women were killed here in the first four months of 2004 compared with the same period last year, while the number of male victims fell by 8 per cent. There were still nearly six times more men killed than women, but activists insist this statistic does not tell the whole story because a large number of the female victims are tortured before they die.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,11812,1232430,00.html

 

[Imp!]

We have just two groups of people in the US right now but who knows, if this happens we might end up having a more gradient distribution of racism: infinite races.

Just 2 groups in the US? You gotta be shitting me.

Anyway, African integration, yeah tough problems, but all I hear about here in California are the problems with Mexican/Latino integration... I think that's an even tougher hurdle, as Mexicans still identify with there old country, and even if they don't have strong ties, they have no real reason to be proud productive members of this society. Still, I can't see how how people can expect such swift change in culture, I mean it really wasn't too long ago that African Americans were still openly segregated against and hated.

 

[Tongue_Ring]

i've solved the problem

pick a state like arkansas
and then just say "no white people allowed inside arkansas"
and have the minorities have their own state

 

[Horus]

I feel like I've been pretty inconsistant lately in the Philosopher forum. Well, I guess I'll make up for that with an epic post.

As somebody witnessing the effect of the "African American Culture" on American Society every single day of my life for the past 5 years of my life, I can safely say that the African American Culture is very stupid. I don't say stupid as in "I don't like it." I really mean that the people who stick to this African American Culture really are unintelligent. And here's the PERFECT example:

This past school year, for the first half of the school year, I was in Advanced Math. There were a total of 2 black people in the entire class, which was pretty large. The rest were all white. Midway through the year, after failing out, I got placed in Regular Math (which I'll be in again this year), and in the class, there were a total of 5 white people, including me, and 2 of those people were "Wiggers" (white people who wanna be black). The 2 white people in the class that weren't Hip Hop Ghetto passed with around a 95, while the rest of the class was near failing. In the Advanced Math, everyone was a ll well behaved, and obedient, and none of them were all hip hip ghetto. In the latter of the 2 classes, the entire class, excluding myself, was wild, crazy, out of control and disobedient. In the middle of class, they'd start having freestyle rap battles. And the day before Sprin Break, I actually asked them why the hell they don't shut the hell up in the middle of class, and they all said something along the lines of "Nigga,Math is fo' White people. Y'all don't need this shit in real life. All y'all need is yo gat, yo ride, yo ho, n' yo cash." That was an exact quote of one person, and I will remember that for the rest of my life. And it was right then and there that I officially adopted the belief that Ghetto wanabees tink that knowing things is useless.

Their culture doesnt value education, property, marriage, proper child-rearing, cleanliness--i could go on.

You forgot something: PHILOSOPHY. Last year, in debating the Presidential election in my English class, I was giving philosophical reasons behind all my arguments, and all the Ghetto kids in the class were laughing at me, because they didn't know what the hell I was talking about and thought I wasn't making sense at all the entire time. So I started to explain all my reasoning and how I'm looking at all these issues from a Philosophical point of view and how I was using the past as a mirror to see the future, and they started making fun of me, and started making fun of me, calling me a cornball and a homo, but that was for other reasons though.
My point though, is that this whole African American Culture doesn't even have anybody that does any actual thinking!! It completely discredits anyone who tries to use too much reason in their thinking. That's not right!

Something else that I wanted to touch on is a certain television station, called Black Entertainment Television, more commonly known as BET. First off, it degrades Black people as it is, because it's Black entertainment television. The last time I checked, you still get yelled at for saying African American!! Second, who are they to assume that all black people listen to Rap, R&B, Hip-Hop, or any of the other sub-genres of Ghetto music they advertise? Who are they to assume that all Black people enjoy watching bitches and hoes get pimped to oblivion? Who are they to assume that ALL black people like seeing rappers with their $3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cars and houses, and chains and stuff? Who are they to assume all of that? I'll tell you who they are to assume this kindof crap: They are the people who tell Black people to like this stuff. And that my friends, is called brainwashing.

Another thing I wanna rant about is the concept of being cool because you look rich and live in a shithole. Back in 7th Grade, when I was friends with alot of up-and-coming gangstas, I noticed how they were always wearing these expensive as hell clothes and stuff. $500 sneakers, $100 shirts n stuff, $50 hats, everything was rediculously expensive. And I went to one of my friends' houses one day, and it was, indeed, a shithole, with a PS2, XBox, Gamecube and huge screen tv. And I was surprised, becasue of all the stuff they have in such a badly kept house. But I don't understand how parents could possibly be speniding so much money on useless things like video games and expensive clothes and stuff like that, but not be willing to use some of that money to redo the fucking kitchen, or bathroom or something!

And yes, still more. The lyrics to these songs that form the foundation for the "African American Culture". And I'm sure you all know what genre of music I'm talking about. All together kiddies? Gangsta Rap. That's right. Why the hell do lyrics about pimping hoes, smoking weed, livin' in the ghetto and cappin' niggas' asses for their crack money catch on so well with people? I can understand why the people in the inner cities would be attracted to this, and I respect that, because there are lots of people in cities and projects (which I'll get back to later) that really do have hard lives. But the people who I'm talking about are the people who live in Suburbs and go to very good schools, yet still seem to claim that they're living hard in the ghetto. My town is divided pretty much in half: Baldwin Harbor, the south part, where all the more upper-middle class people live, including myself, and North Baldwin, which in recent years, began to become a semi-slum. And in these same recent years, the African American population, from what I'm told, nearly tripled. In North Baldwin, there is always a group of people, somewhere, walking around all gangsta like, as if they're ready to cap some asses, acting all tough. The stores went from nice furniture stores n' stuff, to all $0.99 stores and Bodegas, and the houses used to look all nice and fancy, but they started to get all ugly and dirty, because people didn't feel like keeping it looking fresh and new. Real Estate prices have gone down by alot, because the area's just going to hell. (I feel like I got a bit off topic somewhere in this paragraph.)

As I said before, there really are people living in ghettos and Projects that really did have it hard. And when they talk about their tough lives and experiences living in "da hood", people listen. Coincidentally, these people are all Black. Do you all wanna hear something very interesting? My dad grrew up in Projects also, and had it just as hard as all these Black people. Him and his family all lived in the Projects just outside New York City, and do you know what? At the beginning of high school, my dad moved to a nicer area in the city. How you ask? His dad/my grandfather got a JOB!!! That's how. Anyone can, in one way or another, do something to make their lives much better. All you need is to be able to put in the effort. The fact that this "African American Culture" seems to discredit effort so much really does not help the fact that most African Americans are the lower class.

I really do believe that there are at least a few people high up that actually are trying to keep down the Black Man, but to say that the government as a whole is out on a mission of white supremacy inot only rediculous, but also Farfetch'd. No, it's Lunacy. There are quite a few Black people in Congress I'm sure, and I always wonder to myself "Why would a black member of Congress want to keep down the Brotha?" Normally, I'd tell you why, but there is no reason why! Black people that always think that the whole government is out to get them are just really paranoid and need to open a newspaper.

What of people like Dave Chepelle, who manage to make Gangsta life into a big joke? To be honest, I'm quite glad that he made the Ghetto world into a joke, because if he didn't do it, who would? Better yet, who would do it like he did? I like Dave's comedy alot. The only problem I've ever had with his show, was walking into school and hearing "I'm Rick James, bitch." over and over again, every 4 seconds.

Overall, to get to discussing the title of this thread, I agree, very strongly. Having lived in a school district that seems to be the most perfect possible example of Integration at its "finest", it still didn't work. All the black people hang out with black people. All the white people hang out with white people. Black people have been ranting about Racism and civil rights for hundreds of years, but when they finally get what they want, they intentionally segregate themselves again, and still continue to blame racism and claim that they'r ebeing opressed, while in reality, they're just too fucking lazy to get off their asses, look for a job, and get their shit together. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that even when they do get jobs, they're still gonna complain saying that The White Man "Gave" them bad jobs with low pay and long hours or something. If this does become the case, then I say just stop giving so much help to people who can't get their shit together.

Note: I started typing this post in the middle of the album Sanctus Ignis by Adagio, and went all they way through Temple of Shadows by Angra, finishing at the same exact time as the last song.

 

[Tongue_Ring]

1st
my previous post was semi-sarcastic

2nd
i've personnally seen exactly what Mr Khnemu was talking about, except in Dallas/Fort Worth area it's the north that's prep-town and the south that's ghetto-ville
the black people just don't try, and they think that because of slavery, the white man should just give them money instead of jobs

 

[Blinded By Blood]

I'm of mixed descent and I find myself constantly thinking extremely racist thoughts. I find myself asking why it is that black neighborhoods descend into violence and filth. I wonder why it is cities degrade and become dangerous. Philadelphia's murder rate is reaching record proportions, and the city becomes dangerous and drives people out. While I don't blame all black people by any means, I find that people as a whole are responsible. I'm sure experiences have helped shape my view. For example, last night I went to the movies. All throughout the movies, there was a group of black kids who were being loud and obnoxious. It irritated me to no end. Not only could I not see a group of white kids doing that, but if they did it wouldn't be to the level of obnoxiousness or stupidity that the kids last night were at

I think without this whole "gangsta" culture going around as a fad, it'd be alot better in life

 

[infoterror]

What about removal of race itself? With increasing interracial breeding, could we see eventually see genetic convergence leading to creation of a single "gray race" inhabiting the world? This would certainly solve the racial integration problem but would it lead to other problems?

So you want to destroy all hereditary genetic differences instead of accepting the obvious, which is that populations don't mix?

YOU'RE NUTS

 

[infoterror]

i've solved the problem

pick a state like arkansas
and then just say "no white people allowed inside arkansas"
and have the minorities have their own state

While your post is sarcastic, I think this is fair. I know many African-Americans I respect, but I never want to live in a mixed culture -- I've read too much history to want it or the "uni-race" as some brave soul here suggested. I think with respect we can separate and they can have their autonomy. In fact, I'm all for dividing up the United States -- it's friggin' huge -- and giving some to the Indians (who are not "Native Americans") and some to other ethnic groups who've been here awhile. Might kick out most of the newcomers... sorry!

 

[hibernal_dream]

I'm of mixed descent and I find myself constantly thinking extremely racist thoughts. I find myself asking why it is that black neighborhoods descend into violence and filth. I wonder why it is cities degrade and become dangerous. Philadelphia's murder rate is reaching record proportions, and the city becomes dangerous and drives people out. While I don't blame all black people by any means, I find that people as a whole are responsible. I'm sure experiences have helped shape my view. For example, last night I went to the movies. All throughout the movies, there was a group of black kids who were being loud and obnoxious. It irritated me to no end. Not only could I not see a group of white kids doing that, but if they did it wouldn't be to the level of obnoxiousness or stupidity that the kids last night were at

I think without this whole "gangsta" culture going around as a fad, it'd be alot better in life

Exactly. The problem is cultural, not genetic. I've seen some white people acting "gangsta" such that if their skin were painted darker you'd think they were black. The whole point of this thread is that integration has failed, literally. But I don't think it has even been attempted - there are still black and white neighborhoods, black and white schools so it's no surprise the two races which have been brought up differently also act differently.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Gangsta culture is indeed promoted in such a way as to keep Blacks down, as Ptah Khnemu observed. But this is clearly not being done by White racists, as there is no sign of White racists being anything other than the "bogeymen" of modern culture. The true intention is to make White people also behave like Gangstas.

And it is working very well, with increasing numbers doing so. There are very few non-Whites where I live, but the (especially underclass) White youth mostly seem to idolise rappers such as 50cent and Eminem. After playing a game of Grand Theft Auto, young boys openly talk to eachother of their ambition to be a pimp when they are older.

Certain people want Whites to follow into the ghetto culture. This elite see it as essential to consolidation of their power. They educate their children separately from these "animals", and teach their children to see popular culture as a weapon to use against others, and certainlly not for their own consumption.

 

[Tongue_Ring]

1st
my previous post was semi-sarcastic

2nd
i've personnally seen exactly what Mr Khnemu was talking about, except in Dallas/Fort Worth area it's the north that's prep-town and the south that's ghetto-ville
the black people just don't try, and they think that because of slavery, the white man should just give them money instead of jobs

when i wrote this^^^ i was prevented from making it longer because the free internet time was about to timeout
when i read Khnemu's post i was dazzled because it looked as if the words had been taken out of my mind
the only difference, and i really do mean the only difference is that i've never been north of the mason-dixon line
right down to me hearing the blacks in the remedial math class talking about "not needin' no math in the real mutha-fuckin' world"
in response to the title of this thread
yes
integration really has failed, and it was a very spectacular failure

 

[infoterror]

The problem is cultural, not genetic. I've seen some white people acting "gangsta" such that if their skin were painted darker you'd think they were black. The whole point of this thread is that integration has failed, literally. But I don't think it has even been attempted - there are still black and white neighborhoods, black and white schools so it's no surprise the two races which have been brought up differently also act differently.

No -- the problem is both cultural and genetic. (Black populations average 89 IQ; Euripids average 103-107; Eurasians average in the mid-90s; East Asians are 101-105)

Integration has been attempted. Black and white neighborhoods still exist because the groups didn't combine despite BILLIONS of dollars of federal money. When are you going to open your mind and leave behind fantasy?

 

[infoterror]

Gangsta culture is indeed promoted in such a way as to keep Blacks down, as Ptah Khnemu observed.

It definitely isn't helping blacks, as Public Enemy (the hip-hop group, not the Oi one) observed years ago.

I think gangsta rap is promoted because it's profitable, and in this world, if something is profitable nobody seems to care whether or not it's destructive.

I don't feel integration has worked to help blacks. I would like to be fair to blacks (presuming that one can "help" another ethnic group is racism, to me -- it's suggesting there's something "wrong" with them as is). What's "wrong" here is integration.

And a number of black folk agree with me. If it is does respectfully, with care and gentleness, without acrimony -- I think it would work. A lot better than what's happening now, which seems to put blacks in a society they don't want and subject white people to paying for it.

Thanks to Judge Clark’s tyrannical whimsies, the state of Missouri spends $350 million a year, or 6.8 percent of its entire budget, on “desegregation.” This is more than annual expenditures on prisons, courts, Highway Patrol, and state fire marshals—combined. Almost all the money goes to the majority-black school districts of Kansas City and St. Louis.

What have been the results of this grand experiment? Instructional costs, not including costs of the building program, have more than doubled from $3,094 per pupil per year to $8,000 (during the same period, the state average rose from $2,470 to $3,760).

In the white suburbs, in places like Raytown and Lee’s Summit, schools spend less than half the money Kansas City does on each student and get much better results. The Blue Springs district, for example, spends $3,403 per pupil compared to $8,000 per pupil in Kansas city. By the third grade, its students are already 70 to 80 points ahead of Kansas City on the Missouri standardized test (graded from 200 points to 595).

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/08/the_latest_colo.php#