Is pop starting to borrow from the Prog and power scene?

[Jim LotFP]

It has before. May I site bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and Metallica, who had a million seller without so much as a video. Not saying that it will be again, but it happened once. These, and other, metal bands were selling millions and selling out arenas across the US.

... and what happened to Metallica immediately after having this million seller? mmmm? Oh yes, they went straight to shit. Don't even try to tell me you're a Load apologist or that the black album is in any way creatively equivalent to what they did before.

Priest rode every single trend they came across until Halford rejoined. They're pretty shit all around.

Iron Maiden are an example people can throw out for mainstream not ruining a band, because Steve Harris has proven he's going to follow his own vision even if it sucks shit and nobody else is interested. He's going to write it, record it, and release it anyway. You know he thinks Virtual XI kicks ass all over Chemical Wedding, and that makes him a sad, sad man.

I'm finding some of this amusing. The talk of prog being the underground music and bands who are punk influenced, like Green Day, are in the 'mainstream'. I remeber, in the late 70's, when punk was the underground music and was a response to the corporate, mainstream music that was prog.

... I think it's hilarious that this gets repeated so often. "Punk saved the world from the corporate wank of self-absorbed prog music" is how 'respectable' music 'journalists' would phrase it. Do we forget about disco?

As to the question of people fearing the mainstream, I don't think it is so much that people fear it, as some people like to see themselves as part of the underground scene...for arrogant reasons. It gives them an air of superiority about themselves. "I don't buy into that corporate bullshit that the media force feeds the masses of sheeple". What - the - fuck - ever! These kinda people really think this makes them a more sophisticated music conisoure. It is the same in other genres, as well.

For years and years I thought this way. Then it clicked. For anything to become 'a hit', it has to appeal to the lowest common denominator. It is a conscious decision to take the steps to get there. No accidents, no "out of the blue" success if something hits in the mainstream. I don't think it's arrogant to want to be outside of the groupthink.

... and I think it's pretty damn rare for a band's best work to be released AFTER they hit it big.

But style really is unimportant in this mainstream vs underground talk, because you've even noted that many genres have this same issue going on within their fanbase. It's not just metal.

Bottom line is, I believe that the 'underground tr00 elite music snob' takes greater care of their listening habits than a radio-listening, MTV-watching, 'what's-the-new-thing?' fan. Is there any disputing that?

I am a fan of country music and there are those who will only listen to what is called Alt-country...artists and music outside of the Nashville circle.

Good for them. I don't know jack shit about country but I've found it pretty easy to tell the difference between the slick-packaged bullshit in a cowboy hat from real music.

These people won't listen to anything that they consider mainstream, there's that word again, country music. I will admit that most of the country music I like, just as with rock/metal, is not played on radio or tv, but I'm not one, that if an artists does break through, will call them sellouts, as others do.

Again, there are no accidents. To break through, you have to be properly handled and prepared. It's that process, not the actual sales, which is the entirety of the problem with mainstream music.

 

[adaher]

Metal bands today borrow some influences. Andy Franck is really fond of that distorted voice thingy. Vanishing Point to my ears borrows heavily from modern radio rock, but are still unique because they combine it with AOR and prog and even a little power metal. BTW, great band for Progpower VII.

But things like 10-minute songs really didn't come from the pop scene, or at least haven't been a part of the pop scene since the days of Styx and Meat loaf. Although I guess Meat Loaf came out with a doozy in 1994 that clocked in around 12:00 and went straight to #1. Edited, of course.

But hey, if Britney Spears wants to try a concept album with a 20-minute epic in there, who am I to stop her?

 

[chibitotoro]

Although if Green Day is doing 10-minute songs with tempo changes and concept albums, I have to wonder if maybe Stride, Dreamscape, and Circus Maximus aren't coming out at just the right time. It would really be something for prog bands to make it thanks to Green Day, as many female-fronted bands have due to Evanescence.

In reference to those two long songs on American Idiot, they don't quite do tempo changes in the way you're thinking of. The songs go through different stages, each with its own title, tempo, and musical style. Green Day is not busting out songs with crazy time signatures or anything, they're just making songs that take their time to develop, musically and lyrically. So I don't think this is much of a foundation for Dreamscape or Circus Maximus to try and step into the main stream, because it's still a very different style of music.

 

[nightwish58]

Ignorance is divine. Just because they dont have keyboard/guitar duels, or blistering guitar solos doesn't mean their shit. Not being a fan of punk at all, I can honestly say Green Day are the best mainstream act of the past decade, and one of the few bands with lasting power. Each guy is sufficient at what they do, they don't aspire to be muisical geniuses or play in every time signature.

Perhaps you kids should learn to appreciate simpler forms of music.

Maybe you don't realize you are making these statements on a Prog Power forum. I could personally care less if they are the best mainstream band out there because mainstream to me is all about following trends and compromising musical integrity.

And yeah, they don't aspire to be musical geniuses because they simply can't. Unfortunately, our society is so simple minded when it comes to music that they will ultimately buy into any piece of crap that is sent over the air waves. I am shocked at the garbage that is played over the radio, but people continue to buy it because it is "in".

I have always been against trends and conformity and that is why I respect prog/power metal bands. These are bands that truly have a love for music and creating songs that they want to create. These commercial bands are not musicians in my mind; they are little puppets dancing on a string. Yeah, at the end of the day, they make the money, but they also (like I said above) compromised their musical integrity. Apparently they could care less and that is what is disturbing to me.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

Maybe you don't realize you are making these statements on a Prog Power forum. I could personally care less if they are the best mainstream band out there because mainstream to me is all about following trends and compromising musical integrity.

And yeah, they don't aspire to be musical geniuses because they simply can't. Unfortunately, our society is so simple minded when it comes to music that they will ultimately buy into any piece of crap that is sent over the air waves. I am shocked at the garbage that is played over the radio, but people continue to buy it because it is "in".

I have always been against trends and conformity and that is why I respect prog/power metal bands. These are bands that truly have a love for music and creating songs that they want to create. These commercial bands are not musicians in my mind; they are little puppets dancing on a string. Yeah, at the end of the day, they make the money, but they also (like I said above) compromised their musical integrity. Apparently they could care less and that is what is disturbing to me.

Basically, yes.

 

[TheWhisper]

... and what happened to Metallica immediately after having this million seller? mmmm? Oh yes, they went straight to shit. Don't even try to tell me you're a Load apologist or that the black album is in any way creatively equivalent to what they did before.

First, damn dude, do you always get this pissed off when someone has a differing opinion than yours?

They made an album called...'And Justice For All' that, shitty production aside, was a pretty progressive album and a damn good at that. The 'Black' album was a good album, imo. I think the problem people have with the 'Black' album, imo, is all of a sudden their underground band not only was selling millions, but was getting massive amounts of airplay. And Priest was pretty well known by the time they made 'Painkiller', and that was a great album. Dio never compromised, imo, to get to the level of success he attained selling out arenas.

As for punk, I didn't assert that punk saved any fuckin' thing. I was making an observation as to how things come around full circle. Prog rock was in the mainstream and punk was the underground music...now these punk influenced bands are getting the airplay and prog is now the underground music. I still contend, because I've known many people like this, that there are those who refuse to listen to anything that they consider 'commercial', regardless.

I do find it funny, sometimes, that we hold musicians to a higher standard than we do ourselves. It is, after all, called the music business for a reason. If an artist wants to make music regardless of what is commercially viable at the time, good for them. If, on the other hand, they decide to try to make a commercially successful album, meaning more sales, and make themselves some money, so be it. I will not criticize anyone for trying to succeed in their chosen profession. I don't have to like the music they make, but I don't fault them for trying to better themselves financially. I dare say, that there are many on this board who do the same thing every day. I know I've had jobs before that the only reason I did them was because they paid me! So, if I am willing to do something just for the money, how can I, in good conscience, criticize someone else for the same thing?

A last note, Do we really think that everyone who makes commercially viable/mainstream/pop music is just in it for the money? Could it be that some of these bands/artists actually like the music they're making?

 

[Jim LotFP]

First, damn dude, do you always get this pissed off when someone has a differing opinion than yours?

The new LotFP is due any day now, the wait is driving me NUTS, and is 32 pages discussing this very topic. I'm kind of worked up and have it on the brain and this thread provided some waiting anxiety relief.

They made an album called...'And Justice For All' that, shitty production aside, was a pretty progressive album and a damn good at that. The 'Black' album was a good album, imo. I think the problem people have with the 'Black' album, imo, is all of a sudden their underground band not only was selling millions, but was getting massive amounts of airplay. And Priest was pretty well known by the time they made 'Painkiller', and that was a great album. Dio never compromised, imo, to get to the level of success he attained selling out arenas.

I like a couple songs off of And Justice... but the longer songs are so fucking repetitive... I think their 'progressive' attempt was a failure, and combine that with the production... uuggghhhhhh. The Black album was actually the first Metallica album I ever heard, and it was because of their popularity that I thought to try them out. But hearing their earlier stuff actually made me CARE about them. I would have gotten around to Metallica a year or two later anyway after I got into metal itself and not just the neat band on MTV.

Painkiller is a decent album, but they were once again putting their fingers on the pulse of the fans and writing music that way. The more I compare Priest to whatever was going on at the time, the weaker they seem. 70s Priest is the only stuff I bother with anymore.

Dio was successful because of Ritchie Blackmore, and then Tony Iommi, and then that Def Leppard guy whose name I can't remember right now. Luckily he also had his own talent in both writing and especially singing so he's not just a leech like Ozzy but I wonder if he'd even be on the radar of music if Blackmore hadn't had one of his Deep Purple hissy fits.

I still contend, because I've known many people like this, that there are those who refuse to listen to anything that they consider 'commercial', regardless.

... and I bet their music collection kicks a lot of ass over people who shop for music at Wal Mart.

I do find it funny, sometimes, that we hold musicians to a higher standard than we do ourselves. It is, after all, called the music business for a reason.

It's a great excuse to crush anybody being "difficult" and "creative" and drop them after financing their new album and then holding it for ransom until the band finds somebody to sign them AND buy the album.

If, on the other hand, they decide to try to make a commercially successful album, meaning more sales, and make themselves some money, so be it. I will not criticize anyone for trying to succeed in their chosen profession.

I will.

I don't have to like the music they make, but I don't fault them for trying to better themselves financially.

I do.

I dare say, that there are many on this board who do the same thing every day. I know I've had jobs before that the only reason I did them was because they paid me! So, if I am willing to do something just for the money, how can I, in good conscience, criticize someone else for the same thing?

... because some people have useful jobs, or jobs that aren't pretending to be methods of personal creative expression. I have a job (yay), but my job does not define me at all. I don't think it's possible to create music with that same disconnect and have it be any good.

A last note, Do we really think that everyone who makes commercially viable/mainstream/pop music is just in it for the money? Could it be that some of these bands/artists actually like the music they're making?

... right now I'm thinking of Mariah Carey just possibly believing she is the most important and creative artist of ours or any other time. heehee

 

[TheWhisper]

@ Jim LotFP:

We obviously have two very different opinions on the subject.

I will always be behind anyone making their life better and succeeding...as long as it is above board, legal and all. I like to see people do well, to succeed. I still think it is a bit hypocritical to hold musicians, actors, athletes etc., to a different standard than ourselves, when it comes to financial earning. They are making a product, packaging it, marketing it and selling it to the consumer.

As far as which album, by whatever band, is good or not, who can say. I am not so arrogant as to think I can make that distinction. The best that I can do is give my opinion, as to whether or not I like it, but who am I to say it is good or bad. I think something is great, others may think it blows...it is all subjective.

I just don't take all this stuff too seriously, or try to over-think it...its just music, entertainment. I know some think it a higher art form, and isn't meant to be enjoyed as entertainment, but, to me, music is just that...to be enjoyed. I'm a realist, not an idealist, I guess. I see things as they are, not as I wish them to be.

 

[mitchgx]

I could personally care less if they are the best mainstream band out there because mainstream to me is all about following trends and compromising musical integrity.

That's pretty funny considering that there's only a handful of truly original bands in the prog/power genre. Most of them are following the trends that Maiden, Dream Theater, Helloween etc. started. Do you really think a band like Nine Inch Nails (as a f'rinstance) has somehow compromised their "musical integrity" because they've sold a boatload of discs. Sorry, but Trent Reznor has more integrity in his right hand than 90% of prog/power bands. Make that 95%.

And yeah, they don't aspire to be musical geniuses because they simply can't.

Define "musical genius". Does it mean somebody that can play an instrument at a virtuoso level? Then I guess Nuno Bettencourt is a musical genius. But John Lennon isn't. Chris Impelliteri is a genius, but Roger Waters isn't. Genius is a relative term, especially when you're talking about music. To me, genius is being able to write something that connects with people in a real, personal way. I might make an argument that Billy Joe Armstrong is a genius at crafting a catchy 3-minute punk/pop song. I'll bet Timo Tolkki couldn't do it. But it sure seems like theres about 150 Scandinavian bands writing syrupy speed metal songs.

Hey whatever. Like what you like, that's fine. And I'm not meaning to pick on you...it's just that a lot of fans of power and prog metal need to look in the mirror when they talk about things like trends and lack of originality.

 

[YanLeviathan]

@ Jim LotFP:

We obviously have two very different opinions on the subject.

I will always be behind anyone making their life better and succeeding...as long as it is above board, legal and all. I like to see people do well, to succeed. I still think it is a bit hypocritical to hold musicians, actors, athletes etc., to a different standard than ourselves, when it comes to financial earning. They are making a product, packaging it, marketing it and selling it to the consumer.

As far as which album, by whatever band, is good or not, who can say. I am not so arrogant as to think I can make that distinction. The best that I can do is give my opinion, as to whether or not I like it, but who am I to say it is good or bad. I think something is great, others may think it blows...it is all subjective.

I just don't take all this stuff too seriously, or try to over-think it...its just music, entertainment. I know some think it a higher art form, and isn't meant to be enjoyed as entertainment, but, to me, music is just that...to be enjoyed. I'm a realist, not an idealist, I guess. I see things as they are, not as I wish them to be.

Call me sad, pathetic, whatever, but to me music is EVERYTHING. It consumes my every waking moment. There's very few periods in my day where I'm not listening or doing something with music. It truly flows through my veins. Its got nothing to do with what I do for a living; I've been this way my whole life. For myself and others that are passionate about music, when we see people mistreating it; it truly bothers us.

Believe me when I say that the genre of power/prog metal has very little money in it; it is definitely safe to say that people in this area of music are truly in it because they love it; its not for the money because there simply isn't any. You guys would probably think I'm insane if you knew how much money I've put into Avian already and I won't even come close to breaking even for a at least a few years.

However, I understand your point of view because you have your life and your passions; just because music isn't one of them doesn't make you better or worse. Like you said, its simply a matter of different view points and likes and dislikes.

Yan

 

[chibitotoro]

Maybe you don't realize you are making these statements on a Prog Power forum. I could personally care less if they are the best mainstream band out there because mainstream to me is all about following trends and compromising musical integrity.

And yeah, they don't aspire to be musical geniuses because they simply can't. Unfortunately, our society is so simple minded when it comes to music that they will ultimately buy into any piece of crap that is sent over the air waves. I am shocked at the garbage that is played over the radio, but people continue to buy it because it is "in".

I have always been against trends and conformity and that is why I respect prog/power metal bands. These are bands that truly have a love for music and creating songs that they want to create. These commercial bands are not musicians in my mind; they are little puppets dancing on a string. Yeah, at the end of the day, they make the money, but they also (like I said above) compromised their musical integrity. Apparently they could care less and that is what is disturbing to me.

I submit that your refusal to listen to anything popular simply because it is popular makes you as much of a simple-minded sheep as the pop music fans you so vehemently abhor.

 

[nightwish58]

I submit that your refusal to listen to anything popular simply because it is popular makes you as much of a simple-minded sheep as the pop music fans you so vehemently abhor.

I submit that I didn't say what you have submitted. I would listen to popular music if or when prog/power metal becomes popular. My point is simply that the bands I love write music from the heart and fulfill their own personal musical desires while the majority of the mainstream U.S. bands are writing music for their pocket and not for the love and passion of music. I can't help it if it bothers me that bands like Poverty's No Crime, (no pun intended) who continuously put out incredible, well written, inspiring music have to struggle to sell a few thousand albums while garbage like Green Day sells out arenas in the matter of minutes (simply because some executive decided that the 2 cord crap they play should be on the radio every 2 seconds). It is downright sickening to me. And yes, I am close-minded when it comes to music. I like passion and melody in my music, and that it is lacking in all respects when it comes to trendy, commercial music.

 

[chibitotoro]

I submit that I didn't say what you have submitted. I would listen to popular music if or when prog/power metal becomes popular. My point is simply that the bands I love write music from the heart and fulfill their own personal musical desires while the majority of the mainstream U.S. bands are writing music for their pocket and not for the love and passion of music. I can't help it if it bothers me that bands like Poverty's No Crime, (no pun intended) who continuously put out incredible, well written, inspiring music have to struggle to sell a few thousand albums while garbage like Green Day sells out arenas in the matter of minutes (simply because some executive decided that the 2 cord crap they play should be on the radio every 2 seconds). It is downright sickening to me. And yes, I am close-minded when it comes to music. I like passion and melody in my music, and that it is lacking in all respects when it comes to trendy, commercial music.

But you keep using Green Day as an example for all your points, while they don't really apply to Green Day. This group has proven quite thoroughly with their latest album that they're not writing music just for their pocket - they're writing it because they have passion for it. That's fine if you don't like their sound, I'm not telling you you have to listen to Green Day; but when you make ridiculous generalizations about all popular music, without having listened to and understood the primary album you refer to, you just come across sounding silly.

 

[Met-Al]

It's impossible for everyone to agree on this issue since we all have our view of what's considered "mainstream" and what purpose music serves. Personally, I'm a lot like AvianGuitarist. I eat, breathe, and sleep music. I consider it an art form, and as such, I believe it should come from the heart. On the other hand, society has made music into a business. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing, as it's great to see that somebody can make a living doing what they enjoy. It's a double-edged sword, though, because the average musician tries to find a balance between making music in which they truly believe and making music that satisfies a particular fanbase. I do believe that there are commercial artists that are making the music they enjoy; they're just not the artists that end up on TRL.

As for heavy metal, I believe that most bands in the genre are making music for the love of it. People can say what they want about metal being popular overseas, but it's not like the guys in Primal Fear are driving Bentleys or anything. I'm sure Raggi will have something to say about this, but just because one band may sound like another in the genre (which, lately, is what you're saying about every band minus The Lord Weird Slough Feg), it doesn't mean that they aren't good at what they do or that they're cashing in on a trend. Primal Fear may sound a hell of a lot like Judas Priest, but I doubt they were thinking, "Hey, Judas Priest is a financially well-off band. We should play their style of music." It's one thing to criticize music, and it's another to become so bitter and jaded about music that you rip on every band that isn't doing something completely different from everybody else. I'll admit that a lot of the bands I like may sound similar to each other, but I think they're good at what they do. Jim, you're a cool guy and all, but I think you actually love to hate music. If everything sucks so much, why not make your own music? I recently joined a band myself, and I'm writing lyrics and vocal melodies for the first time in my life. Let me tell you that it's not always easy to write a song, let alone write a song that's going to please everyone in your particular audience.


Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al

 

[Jim LotFP]

People can say what they want about metal being popular overseas, but it's not like the guys in Primal Fear are driving Bentleys or anything.

Mat Sinner is "Label Manager/Personnel Manager" for Nuclear Blast Europe so he very well may be.

I'm sure Raggi will have something to say about this, but just because one band may sound like another in the genre (which, lately, is what you're saying about every band minus The Lord Weird Slough Feg)

Oh yeah, I don't give redundant metal bands a pass by any means. I've only bought one CD in the past 6 weeks (and one band has sent me their latest) and the only albums I'm looking forward to buying are the Atheist reissues.

Primal Fear may sound a hell of a lot like Judas Priest, but I doubt they were thinking, "Hey, Judas Priest is a financially well-off band. We should play their style of music."

... the debut was basically Ralf Scheepers giving the middle finger to Priest for not giving him the singing job.

I'll admit that a lot of the bands I like may sound similar to each other, but I think they're good at what they do.

... and? You have to use judgment somewhere. if every album was the Best Album Ever, there would still be most of the Best Albums Ever that weren't as good as the very best Best Albums Ever. And people only have so much money, so surely you aren't saying EVERY band deserves support/sales from EVERY fan?

Jim, you're a cool guy and all, but I think you actually love to hate music.

... it's just so easy to do.

If everything sucks so much, why not make your own music?

Because EVERYTHING doesn't suck. Just 90%. And what I'd get out of forming a Libertarian grind-folk band (BARDCORE!) wouldn't nearly be worth the effort of doing it. The idea of the Napalm Death Peel Sessions with a tin whistle is something nobody needs, haha.

 

[Barking Pumpkin]

I think people should also realize that no genre is really immune to trends or anything. I see just as much blatant, obnoxious trend following in metal, and even "prog," as I do in mainstream music.

 

[Met-Al]

Good point, Barking Pumpkin. I do agree that no style of music is immune to trends. However, it doesn't mean that a band who plays a style of music in its traditional sense is doing so because that's the way it HAS to be played, or that said band is a bad band for doing so.

Jim, thanks for being cool about my post. It was not my intent to rip on you, and I hope you know that. Yes, I do believe that there is a very small minority of bands that truly stand the test of time and make music that sets them above the rest. However, that doesn't mean that any other band can't make what is simply good music. Just like everyone else, I have CDs in my collection that get more spins than others, and that's because those particular pieces of music stand out for me. That does not mean that I will discard the rest of my collection for being considered "inferior" to what I consider best. Obviously, nobody can afford to own every single piece of music that they like. It's all a matter of personal preference, and it's up to everybody to support those musicians whom they most enjoy. In a perfect world, we would all know every musician whom we would ever like in our lives and support them in every feasible way, be it purchasing their albums, attending their shows, or spreading the word about them. Sadly, though, we're all limited in our finances, our time, and our knowledge of music. On a final note, don't think that effort put forth into a "bardcore" band would be in vain. If nothing else, I'd be curious to hear it!


Stay metal. Never rust.
Met-Al