Is the latest crop of amp sims like kemper and TSE etc killing the art of micing an amp ?
- Thread starter mickrich
- Start date
ArsMemoria
Member
I think it is, mostly because of the convenience factor. It's so much easier, and cost efficient, to have one box that does it all and the Kemper & Axe-FX do the job very well.
When I interned at my studio this past summer, we used his Axe-FX 2 on a track because they went for some extra overdubs and we had already taken down the mics and amps. You could barely tell any real difference, but still, I got into this because I like doing shit like micing an amp and figuring out what sound I can get based on different settings, mics, placement, etc. Other amp sims and impulses, I've never really settled on one I definitely like. I'm actually at a point where I can't stand them these days.
When I interned at my studio this past summer, we used his Axe-FX 2 on a track because they went for some extra overdubs and we had already taken down the mics and amps. You could barely tell any real difference, but still, I got into this because I like doing shit like micing an amp and figuring out what sound I can get based on different settings, mics, placement, etc. Other amp sims and impulses, I've never really settled on one I definitely like. I'm actually at a point where I can't stand them these days.
Well, somebody still has to mic up the cab for it to be profiled/impulsed, so there's that.
That aside, I'd argue that software approaches are simply taking the "art" and turning it into a science, since it's so easy to compare different positions and see how they affect your tone.
That aside, I'd argue that software approaches are simply taking the "art" and turning it into a science, since it's so easy to compare different positions and see how they affect your tone.
nezvers
Beast
Hell no! Sims are more convenient to use, but they are not interfering to art of micing. I jet have to find IR that give me feel of real cab. And still there need to be someone that can make new IRs.
Jarkko Mattheiszen
The FU guy.
For me, absolutely not. Kempers are very convincing even to a sceptic like me, but other than that, I think we're still far away from convincing tube amp emulation, and that suits me just fine. For example, I still haven't heard an Axe FX tone I really liked.
In fact, tube amps are a part of the ritual for me. Letting the tubes warm up, knowing how the electrons run amok through the vacuum and feeling the air pressure from the cab just makes me happy and affects the way I play in a positive way. I do understand the modeler convenience factor, absolutely, but fuck, that just isn't rock 'n' roll to me.
In fact, tube amps are a part of the ritual for me. Letting the tubes warm up, knowing how the electrons run amok through the vacuum and feeling the air pressure from the cab just makes me happy and affects the way I play in a positive way. I do understand the modeler convenience factor, absolutely, but fuck, that just isn't rock 'n' roll to me.
BassTard
Member
Imho the beauty of Kempers is, that they work really well - when you know how to set up the real amp at first. I think of them as "tone-preservers" rather than "tone-creators", if that makes any sense. They do an amazing job of sounding like a mic'd amp, if it's the same guitar and even the same (or a similar) player. I didn't check them in live-situations yet.
The Axe FX - while sounding quite good - has not the potential to obviate the real deal, to my taste.
Also, there's something to the individuality of your amp, your room, your mic & pre and your position, that creates the most awesome inspiration and workflow. But that's just me old man.
This part of making and recording music seems not to be appealing to some metal bands out there, though. Listening to a real musical event is the only thing, that may give me goosebumps. But that's just my five cents. (Admitted it might not sound as precise, aggressive and in-your-face as the sheer technical approach.)
A BIG EDIT:
This, exactly this!!!!! +10000 times, mate!
The Axe FX - while sounding quite good - has not the potential to obviate the real deal, to my taste.
Also, there's something to the individuality of your amp, your room, your mic & pre and your position, that creates the most awesome inspiration and workflow. But that's just me old man.
This part of making and recording music seems not to be appealing to some metal bands out there, though. Listening to a real musical event is the only thing, that may give me goosebumps. But that's just my five cents. (Admitted it might not sound as precise, aggressive and in-your-face as the sheer technical approach.)
A BIG EDIT:
This, exactly this!!!!! +10000 times, mate!
azistenostora
Member
Pretty much everything that was said so far.
Modelers are purely a convenience thing, I use them for songwriting at 2 in the morning when the wife and kids are sleeping. But there is some magical thing for me that happens when I switch a real amp on and see those evil tubes glow up and it instantly improves my playing and I can't even say why. Might be just a psychological thing but no modeler can replace the real thing. Just like racing games or simulators will never be like sitting in a real car. When you hear the engine roar and feel the power in you gut you know what I mean? Fuck modelers, long live real amps!
Modelers are purely a convenience thing, I use them for songwriting at 2 in the morning when the wife and kids are sleeping. But there is some magical thing for me that happens when I switch a real amp on and see those evil tubes glow up and it instantly improves my playing and I can't even say why. Might be just a psychological thing but no modeler can replace the real thing. Just like racing games or simulators will never be like sitting in a real car. When you hear the engine roar and feel the power in you gut you know what I mean? Fuck modelers, long live real amps!
Here is my two cents:
If you are using an AxeFX or Kemper, why the hell would you want to imitate someone else's tones perfectly? Why do people think modelers absolutely have to reproduce 100% the amps they simulate?
I'm sorry, but with most of the sims in the AxeFx and Kemper, most, if not all of us would fail a double blind listening test to pick out the real amp versus the sim. If you don't believe me, then chances are you've never played these units.
The pre amp sims are 99.9999% there. Plug an AxeFX JCM800 preamp sim into the power section of a real JCM and you cannot tell the difference. Hell, take a neutral solid state power amp and run the entire JCM sim into a Marshall cab and you'll still be unable to tell the difference.
Cabs are another story. Its my personal opinion that I can achieve the same baseline tone with the IRs, but I challenge anyone to try and mimic 100% a specific miked tone if you have no mic placement images to reference. You can't do it. Its not possible
It all boils down to how much everyone wants to hang on to their old technology. I understand why someone who spent $3k on a Marshall head would be pissed to find out that for half the price they could have had a modeler replicating the exact same sound their head makes and as an added bonus contains the equivalent of $650,000 worth of gear in the form of FX, Pedal sims and Cabinets, not to mention the absolute ease of routing all of that.
There should never be AxeFx vs. Real amp threads and videos because the AxeFx is an entire technological generation ahead of Tube amplifier technology. At the click of a button, you have trillions more tonal options (some adjustments are not even physically possible to achieve in the real world), the ability to save over 300 unique tones (with x/y and 8 scenes per patch) and it all sits in a two space rack.
$2,500 for a Fractal unit is the biggest fucking steal of a deal that I have ever heard of. I went to my local music store and found a Mesa Mark V combo thinking, "damn, I love the Mesa MarkV sim in the AxeFx, I'd love to have one of these things", I checked the price tag. $3,450???
You've got to be kidding me.
Alas, I understand the love of tube amps. They are AWESOME. I understand why people aren't keen on modelers. I also understand why people don't like the idea of a modeler doing just as good as a tube amp. The fact is that modelers have made it. They are on par sonically with everything they reproduce. In my opinion they surpass all previous guitar technologies now. If you want to keep your $3,000 tube heads and your $10,000 racks then go right ahead. Just don't waste everyone's time commenting on modelers just because the tones you've heard on YouTube (of all places to judge tone, lmfao) are not to your liking.
If you know someone with a modern modeling unit, bring your rig to them and A/B it for yourself. You will see what I mean. It's funny how Axe and Kemper users can love both worlds equally when tube purists get butthurt on the internet about their tube amps. It's like all of a sudden their bread and butter is being challenged so all their standards for sound quality go way down to the point that they are willing to write off the technology based on a compressed to shit YouTube track from some kid in his basement.
It's a money thing. I know it is. A "did I just waste a shit ton of money on a brand and idealism?" thing.
If you are using an AxeFX or Kemper, why the hell would you want to imitate someone else's tones perfectly? Why do people think modelers absolutely have to reproduce 100% the amps they simulate?
I'm sorry, but with most of the sims in the AxeFx and Kemper, most, if not all of us would fail a double blind listening test to pick out the real amp versus the sim. If you don't believe me, then chances are you've never played these units.
The pre amp sims are 99.9999% there. Plug an AxeFX JCM800 preamp sim into the power section of a real JCM and you cannot tell the difference. Hell, take a neutral solid state power amp and run the entire JCM sim into a Marshall cab and you'll still be unable to tell the difference.
Cabs are another story. Its my personal opinion that I can achieve the same baseline tone with the IRs, but I challenge anyone to try and mimic 100% a specific miked tone if you have no mic placement images to reference. You can't do it. Its not possible
It all boils down to how much everyone wants to hang on to their old technology. I understand why someone who spent $3k on a Marshall head would be pissed to find out that for half the price they could have had a modeler replicating the exact same sound their head makes and as an added bonus contains the equivalent of $650,000 worth of gear in the form of FX, Pedal sims and Cabinets, not to mention the absolute ease of routing all of that.
There should never be AxeFx vs. Real amp threads and videos because the AxeFx is an entire technological generation ahead of Tube amplifier technology. At the click of a button, you have trillions more tonal options (some adjustments are not even physically possible to achieve in the real world), the ability to save over 300 unique tones (with x/y and 8 scenes per patch) and it all sits in a two space rack.
$2,500 for a Fractal unit is the biggest fucking steal of a deal that I have ever heard of. I went to my local music store and found a Mesa Mark V combo thinking, "damn, I love the Mesa MarkV sim in the AxeFx, I'd love to have one of these things", I checked the price tag. $3,450???
You've got to be kidding me.
Alas, I understand the love of tube amps. They are AWESOME. I understand why people aren't keen on modelers. I also understand why people don't like the idea of a modeler doing just as good as a tube amp. The fact is that modelers have made it. They are on par sonically with everything they reproduce. In my opinion they surpass all previous guitar technologies now. If you want to keep your $3,000 tube heads and your $10,000 racks then go right ahead. Just don't waste everyone's time commenting on modelers just because the tones you've heard on YouTube (of all places to judge tone, lmfao) are not to your liking.
If you know someone with a modern modeling unit, bring your rig to them and A/B it for yourself. You will see what I mean. It's funny how Axe and Kemper users can love both worlds equally when tube purists get butthurt on the internet about their tube amps. It's like all of a sudden their bread and butter is being challenged so all their standards for sound quality go way down to the point that they are willing to write off the technology based on a compressed to shit YouTube track from some kid in his basement.
It's a money thing. I know it is. A "did I just waste a shit ton of money on a brand and idealism?" thing.
crillemannen
Member
I think the Kemper is a great tool. I don't like the Axe FX, to digital for my taste. I really don't care if it is Kemper or a real amp as long as it sounds good.
It is allot easier for anyone to do a decent sounding demo these days with all the stellar drum samples, Kemper so accessible today for a decent price. But you still need to be a great artist to do great songs and those people usually are ready to pay someone to do the edits and mixing.
The art of recording is so much more then setting up and amp and I don't think the engineering job is going to disappear anytime soon.
It is allot easier for anyone to do a decent sounding demo these days with all the stellar drum samples, Kemper so accessible today for a decent price. But you still need to be a great artist to do great songs and those people usually are ready to pay someone to do the edits and mixing.
The art of recording is so much more then setting up and amp and I don't think the engineering job is going to disappear anytime soon.
egan.
daylightdies.com
I understand your point, but reproducing a mic'd tone is the fundamental point of the kemper. Plenty of us use it as a safety for amps we actually mic during albums.
Jarkko Mattheiszen
The FU guy.
Presenting yourself in such an edgy fashion based on assumptions of the experience of others is a dangerous road. By assuming my opinions and feelings are based on bad Youtube clips pretty much just makes your whole rant invalid. I've got enough experience from both worlds to feel my opinion is somewhat justified. Furthermore, no-one really called out modelers or said it was stupid to spend money on them, so I really don't see what drives you to essentially call someone an idiot who spends three and a half grand on a tube amp. There's a reason why I've held up to my tube amps (and will get more), and that's the subjective semi-psychological experience I personally get from playing them. If a three and half grand tube amp makes me a) enjoy playing more b) play better than a two and a half grand modeler, the whole debate about spending money is just silly. I understand and appreciate that someone who doesn't feel the same would jump on the modeler, and that's absolutely cool.
And for what is worth, I personally consider the Axe-FX ancient technology compared to the Kemper unit, which I actually do find really impressive. If money was the only concern, I'd rather spend three grand on a used tube amp that I'd get my own back if I decided to part with it in ten years. As long as people appreciate classic tube technology, they're an extremely safe investment.
I actually think I learned a lot about micing real amps BECAUSE I got a Kemper. Once you really dive in the profiling process and try to catch the essence of your amps (or the amps of the bands you're recording) you will start to experiment a lot with micing techniques.
ArsMemoria
Member
I'm just trying to figure out 1) where he got $3450 for a Mark V combo(the normal one is $2500) and 2) why he made a new account just to whine about musicians that prefer tube amps to modelers.
That aside, with impulses and micing, I have a few Redwires packs and use them constantly. I've honestly never felt like I learned anything other than an ever-so-slight tone change by clicking through a menu for the 1" away vs. 2" away on the cone with an SM57. But that's my personality I guess, I'd rather sit and be hands on with it instead of reading a drop-down menu.
That aside, with impulses and micing, I have a few Redwires packs and use them constantly. I've honestly never felt like I learned anything other than an ever-so-slight tone change by clicking through a menu for the 1" away vs. 2" away on the cone with an SM57. But that's my personality I guess, I'd rather sit and be hands on with it instead of reading a drop-down menu.
ArsMemoria
Member
Ah, that makes sense. There's one on Sweetwater here in the states for $3500, but it's natural bubinga wood for the cab shell instead of just straight black.
brianhood
No Care Ever
Personally my Kemper has made me lazy as fuck when it comings to mic'ing up a real cab. So it's probably kept me from progressing my tones as much as I would have if I were to have mic'd up a real cab/amp every single time I needed a guitar tone.
Just being honest.
Just being honest.
azistenostora
Member
Maybe. Do you need all of them? I doubt it.
Yes in the sense that digital is ahead of tube technology. Has nothing to do with sound though so is irrelevant.
beefing one off yields the same result as shagging. Is it the same? I don't think so. Unless you're 12 and didn't have the experience yet, in which case ignore this point.
Why insult everyones intelligence? This is a recording forum and most of us have seen, played and heard both real amps and modelers. Also, the fact that you like a modelers tone doesn't mean everybody else is going to like it so why would it be wasting time?
Who's butthurt about it? We all appreciate modelers but prefer real amps. It's not that complicated...
Again this argument is plain stupid for above reasons.
HCL
Holy Crap! Lions!
Still gotta mic up to get those impulses. 10 years ago mostpeople who now have Kempers or use ampsims probably wouldn't be doing all that much recording anyway other than for demos, there are probably more people now with real experience micing than there were back then.
