Israel's military actions justified?

[Europa Ascendent]

Incidentally, having murdered hundreds of Lebanese civilians, called down rocket fire that has led to several civilian deaths in Israel, destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon, caused an environmental crisis, weakened the democratically elected Lebanese government - all without materially degrading Hezbollah - Ehud Olmert is now indicating his willingness to exchange prisoners with Hezbollah as a part of a negotiated ceasefire!

What the FUCK?!! He could have done this from day one and avoided the whole goddamn mess. Fuck you, Ehud Olmert!

 

[Horus]

Some sources speculate that Israel is bombing some unpopulated areas of Israel itself, while claiming that they are Hezbollah missiles. This makes some sense given that the missiles are so very expensive that there would be no point in Hezbollah doing this and it being used as an excuse for further aggression against Lebanon.

I would believe this, but economically, it doesn't make sense, unless they had ways of getting back these missiles or the money they spent for the missiles. As you said, missiles are really expensive and it doesnt make sense to bomb yourself. I'm so close to believeing it, but the money object just keeps me from going over the edge.

Some sources speculate that the moon's made out of chocolate.

Of course it is.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Maybe but then it would be the US paying for it really.

There is an interview with this ex-Israeli pilot, Yonatan Shapira here :http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/21/1432212

He led a refusal of a group of Israeli pilots to fly missions over Palestinian territories in 2003. Now he is very angry about the bombing of Lebanon, calling it a "crazy war" which is unjustified and will cause more danger for both Israel and the whole world. He thinks that Bush wants it to escalate into a nuclear world war and the Israeli General Halutz "will not hesitate to get Syria and Iran involved".

 

[BloodSword]

Incidentally, having murdered hundreds of Lebanese civilians, called down rocket fire that has led to several civilian deaths in Israel, destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon, caused an environmental crisis, weakened the democratically elected Lebanese government - all without materially degrading Hezbollah - Ehud Olmert is now indicating his willingness to exchange prisoners with Hezbollah as a part of a negotiated ceasefire!

What the FUCK?!! He could have done this from day one and avoided the whole goddamn mess. Fuck you, Ehud Olmert!

If you are referring to Quana , I think that's the town that was crushed on sunday, I believe Hezbollah needs to take some responsibility for that as well. Did they not start this mess. Israel, does not have clean hands, but neither does Hezbollah. Theres fuckin' blood everywhere. And fuckin' stop blaming the United States, the Jews and Muslims/Arabs have been at each others throats for thousands of yrs.

 

[RookParliament]

Incidentally, having murdered hundreds of Lebanese civilians, called down rocket fire that has led to several civilian deaths in Israel, destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon, caused an environmental crisis, weakened the democratically elected Lebanese government - all without materially degrading Hezbollah - Ehud Olmert is now indicating his willingness to exchange prisoners with Hezbollah as a part of a negotiated ceasefire!

What the FUCK?!! He could have done this from day one and avoided the whole goddamn mess. Fuck you, Ehud Olmert!

Yes indeed. Fuck Olmert. Oh Sharon you murdering bastard I miss your hand on the reins of power

 

[EGOR]

Aesop's fable about the goose that laid a golden egg involves a man who had a goose that occasionally laid golden eggs. Instead of being grateful and satisfied with what he had, and taking care of the bird, he instead became so greedy that he thought he could get more gold by killing it. When he did this he found nothing.

mm interesting something about an egg..mmm , anyway .... looks like their is going to be a civil war in Iraq because surprise surprise those differing religieouns,and culture variations within Iraq are too embedded... and so they should be. who their right mind expects that everyone should get along in a peacefull mini multicultural muslim nation. Haha, those crazies bush and blair are wanting a little muslim america in Iraq..fools. What a joke! The Iraq people are diverse and want to stay separate, of course they should thats there right..they are not preparedto be forced to live with each other. like our jew friends and palastinians... "People,Religieon and culture" does not mix. To a certain degree..a small degree, but after that tension and then violence and then War.
People of different cultures and religieuon cannot live together...it does not work ...what excists is only tolerance. In every european country today say holland for example.. In Holland the Turks are only tolerated, In France the africans are only tolerated, in Spain the British are only tolerated, in England the Asians are only tolerated. Is that multi-culturalism? just being tolerated?..... Even America which has set itself as an example of multi-culturalism of these modern times is the most un-tolerating country on the planet... Blacks tolerate whites and via - versa. Lets face it people we are all doomed on this planet.. its a powder keg, and it will blow.. the more every counties heritage is erased by these maniacs in power today, then the quicker we get to WW3. Its going to happen, we all know that now. It will start with a dirty bomb... and then within days the "toleration" will stop.. and all of the hatred (harboured) will come pouring out... from all directions.
Their is I believe only one hope for the future ..and that is to all step back abit. Start to sort out the madness of todays "World Immigration" sort out the drug and alcohol abuse in society.... Sort out the filth who roam our streets Robbing us .. molesting our children. Sort out these fuckers in authority who are turning our planet into an oven of heat (global warming)... these evil swines who sit on their hands and do nothing because they are getting back-handers of money and power. Its not a conspiracy going on because its all too transparent.. its obvious whats going on its all around us. But lets all face reality here, "Things aint working as they should".

:Smokin: Drugs are boring, climb a mountain... thats cool.
nothing more attractive than seeing a young women falling around drunk on the street...thats real classy!
Religieon is fine by me.. but for fucks sake keep the fuckers separated cause they cause to much shit


Multi-Culturalism is not working.
get it . got it . good .

www.Agankast.com

 

[speed]

To U.K. posters: Why hasnt Blair been forced out? Everyday I hear of members of his cabinet or his party speaking out against him.

Just wondering, as he's obviously Bush's tool.

 

[Neith]

You condescendingly refer to Islamic cultural norms regarding women's role in society as oppression from your Western democratic pulpit. That's how it's insensitive. Come on, what kind of liberal are you?

it wasn't intended as such, as I think you know. It was posted in reply to EGOR's post, and while 'oppressed' wasn't the right word to choose I stand by what I said. Women are often having a harder time now than they were beforehand. I think that many people who complain about the way women are treated in Iraq/Saudi Arabia, etc are just using it as an excuse for hating these countries so much. Women are treated like shit all over the world, perhaps not so openly or whatever, but if they even cared about it they'd start battling the ill-treatment of women in their own countries. And before anyone accuses me, no, I am not a feminist in any way.

wow understatement of the year. Have you ever read anything about Afghanistan?

Yes I have. The problem is, it is almost always biased and based on someone's opinion, regardless of the evidenced produced.

I figured I'd hear this shit about how we put the Taliban and Saddam in power. You probably know that the CIA trained/funded the Mujahedin fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan (this was a very ruthless and brutal invasion by the way) for the purpose of basically fucking them over. If we hadn't done that, how do you think things would have turned out? Maybe the Soviets would have won. Probably not. Following the Soviet withdrawl was a two to three year period of power struggle between warlords and eventually consolidation on the part of the Taliban (assisted primarily by the Pakistani military dictator of the time) which occurred after the US basically just quit the place. So, you can hardly say we put the Taliban in power.

And although we have in times past aided Saddam or seen him as an ally, we did not play any direct role in bringing him to power.

Ok, so lets say we never helped them come to power. That doesn't change the fact that we've supported them when it's suited us, as you say. The Americans are basically happy to support anyone and everyone if they can get something out of it, regardless of who it is, especially if they can get oil out of it. I can recommend some books to you if you want.

This is just jibberish.

"IT WAS THE WEST!" is an extraordinarily unsophisticated and lazy reading of both the past and present political situation in the Middle East. But I guess when you desperately want to believe that all would be right in the world if the big meanies just let it alone, this is all you need.

I'll be the first to concede that the above was articulated poorly, but that doesn't change what I'm saying. My point was that if the West didn't interefere then half the shit in the Middle East and Africa wouldn't happened. Of course, I can't really prove that, but that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not saying the world would be great, perfect or any more near good if we hadn't always interefered, but at least we couldn't be linked (and potentially held accountable) for a lot of the shit going on in it.

Why do people like you have to resort to insults whenever someone doesn't agree with you on something like this? And do you mind me asking where you come from?

@Speed: It's quite a recent thing that so many are speaking out against Blair. He keeps pleasing everyone with the promise that he's going to retire soon, I guess that buys him some time. The same could be said of Bush, no?

 

[infoterror]

Israel's policy has been for some years now to hold off its Arab nations with two powers: its submarine-delivered nuclear missiles and the military might of the United States. Jews and Muslims know their faiths are incompatible and that one alone can rule the Middle East.


An intelligent policy for Israel would be to admit that only ethnic Jews belong in Israel, and to exclude all others and cease trying to influence broader policy in the region. This contradicts the Western mandate of multiculturalism and would make Israel an obvious "bad guy" according to centuries of Judeo-Christian thought, so this cannot be publically admitted. A grotesque compromise results.


When Muslims look at the United States, they see a country that elects exclusively church-going leaders. They see a right wing dominated by radical Christian interests, and a left predominantly financed and driven by radical Jewish interests. They see AIPAC, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, be accused of stealing state secrets and executing phone taps, and no vast action being taken.

http://www.corrupt.org/articles/israel/

 

[A Dying Breed]

Ok, so lets say we never helped them come to power. That doesn't change the fact that we've supported them when it's suited us, as you say. The Americans are basically happy to support anyone and everyone if they can get something out of it, regardless of who it is, especially if they can get oil out of it.

And? Please give me a historical or contemporary example of a regime whose foreign policy is not based first and foremost on its material, political, and strategic interests. In any case, I was attempting to refute your historical misconceptions, not make any kind of moral claim. You can see elsewhere in this thread my thoughts on how prominently morality figures into global politics.

I can recommend some books to you if you want.

I thought you didn't trust books because "they are almost always biased and based on someone's opinion, regardless of the evidence produced?" I guess you don't mind so long as the bias reflects your own.

My point was that if the West didn't interefere then half the shit in the Middle East and Africa wouldn't happened. Of course, I can't really prove that, but that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

That's wonderful, but formulating an opinion with regard to politics is not like choosing wallpaper. If you lack basic knowledge of the subject area, your opinion is not an opinion so much as just worthless bullshit. "Books are biased" isn't an excuse.

 

[speed]

Israel's policy has been for some years now to hold off its Arab nations with two powers: its submarine-delivered nuclear missiles and the military might of the United States. Jews and Muslims know their faiths are incompatible and that one alone can rule the Middle East.


An intelligent policy for Israel would be to admit that only ethnic Jews belong in Israel, and to exclude all others and cease trying to influence broader policy in the region. This contradicts the Western mandate of multiculturalism and would make Israel an obvious "bad guy" according to centuries of Judeo-Christian thought, so this cannot be publically admitted. A grotesque compromise results.


When Muslims look at the United States, they see a country that elects exclusively church-going leaders. They see a right wing dominated by radical Christian interests, and a left predominantly financed and driven by radical Jewish interests. They see AIPAC, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, be accused of stealing state secrets and executing phone taps, and no vast action being taken.

http://www.corrupt.org/articles/israel/

Israel has implicitly acted as if only jews have rights, and has treated all others (arabs) as second class citizens with no rights to liberty, property, and even life. Yet as you add Infoterror, a great number of the israeli population is comprised of non-jews from Eastern Europe, who claimed they were jewish to get into Israel.

And here's whats wrong with your ethnic statement: to Jews, judaism is cultural, not racial or based on blood.

I have it on very close information, that Israel does steal almost everything we have. They are our biggest enemy--even if we think of them as a friend.

 

[Neith]

I didn't say I didn't trust books, my point was what I have read usually contradicts other information I have read, therefore it's impossible to make a fair conclusion about many things, including the Taliban and their motives. I try to keep a fairly open mind, and I do not only read sources with a "bias that reflects my own". And I never used it as an excuse. I think most policies and groups have good and bad points, including the Taliban and Americans.

Yes, foreign policy is usually based on those things you said, but that doesn't dictate how that government has to get these materials. America doesn't have to use brute force and hypocrisy in order to further their interests, they just do it because they can, or could. To be honest, I think they are digging their grave as opposed to furthing their interests.

 

[Falconspirit]

Source: Haaretz (Israeli Newspaper)
----

Did you know?
By Gabriele Zamparini
"I, Tsilli Goldenberg, Israeli citizen

Accuse you - Ehud Olmert, Prime Minister of Israel,
Amir Peretz, Minister of Defense, Dan Halutz Head of
Staff Chief Commander of the Israeli Army, of
committing this bestial barbaric slaughter in Lebanon.

I accuse you of committing Crimes against Humanity
towards the Palestinian People. I accuse you of
deserting our soldiers, when their lives could be
saved by negotiations, and I accuse you of starting an
unjustified war in my name." - Tsilli Goldenberg,
Masarik 11, Jerusalem 93106 Israel

Did you know that "Dana Olmert, the daughter of
Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert... [was one of]
the demonstrators [who] chanted slogans such as
'Tzahala residents, there's a murderer in your
neighborhood,' and raised signs calling on the
government to 'put a stop to the murder of civilians'
and stating, 'Halutz is a killer, the Intifada shall
prevail.' Activists also shouted, 'neighbors, ask
Halutz why he's killing children and how many'"?

Why not?

Did you know that "45% of those killed in Lebanon are
children and of the 500,000 people who have fl ed to
safety, some 200,000 are children"?

Why not?

Did you know that Israel bombed "the nation's biggest
private network, the Lebanese Broadcasting
Corporation"?

Why not?

Did you know that a "big milk factory in the Bekaa
region called 'Liban Lait' was completely burned and
destroyed by direct attacks from the Israeli Air
Force."? And that a "food storehouse called 'TransMed'
in Choueifate, in Beirut's southern suburbs, was
totally destroyed"?

Why not?

Did you know that "Lebanon's president accused Israel
on Monday of using phosphorous bombs in its 13-day
offensive and urged the United Nations to demand an
immediate ceasefire"?

Why not?

Did you know that "the bodies of 13 Lebanese fighters
were taken from Maroun al-Ras and buried in Israel to
use in future negotiations over the release of Israeli
prisoners"?

Why not?

Did you know that "Israeli military has said it will
destroy 10 buildings in predominantly Shia south
Beirut for every rocket fired at the Israeli port of
Haifa, army radio said Monday"?

Why not?

Did you know that "The delivery of at least 100 GBU 28
bunker busters bombs containing depleted uranium
warheads by the United States to Israel for use
against targets in Lebanon will result in additional
radioactive and chemical toxic contamination with
consequent adverse health and environmental effects
throughout the middle east."?

Why not?

Did you know that what's going on is "subject to
review by Israel's chief military censor, who has - in
her own words – 'extraordinary power'. She can silence
a broadcaster, block information and put journalists
in jail"?

Why not?

Did you know that "according to the Lebanese police
force, the two [Israeli] soldiers were captured in
Lebanese territory"?

Why not?

Did you know how the "cross-border" myth originated?

Why not?

From the beginning of this new chapter of the old
madness, many people have been following on the
internet this shame. We are a peaceful army of world
citizens, working for free and moved by solidarity,
compassion and an inner drive for justice. Not anger!

But even among the elites of the anti-war movement and
the so-called "left", too many have never been
listening to us. Let alone important journalists
working for the "pro-Israeli" mainstream media who
still believe that the "internet is a new thing, and
it's also unreliable."

More than sixty years ago George Orwell wrote in The
Freedom of the Press, a Preface to his political
novel, Animal Farm:

"But at least let us have no more nonsense about
defending liberty against Fascism. If liberty means
anything at all it means the right to tell people what
they do not want to hear. The common people still
vaguely subscribe to that doctrine and act on it… it
is the liberals who fear liberty and the intellectuals
who want to do dirt on the intellect…"

This Preface was censored when the book came out in
1945 and it was only published in The Times Literary
Supplement on 15 September 1972. Twenty seven years
after Animal Farm was first published.
Best regard

 

[speed]

Whats really a shame is that if Iran or the United States really wanted to see an end to the war, they both could do it. Iran merely has to cut off oil exports (putting severe economic pressure on the rest of the world to demand a ceasefire), and America threaten to cut Israels defense budget (cough, i mean Israel's foreign aid that makes up most of our international development spending).

 

[Norsemaiden]

Whats really a shame is that if Iran or the United States really wanted to see an end to the war, they both could do it. Iran merely has to cut off oil exports (putting severe economic pressure on the rest of the world to demand a ceasefire), and America threaten to cut Israelis defense budget (cough, i mean Israeli's foreign aid that makes up most of our international development spending).

Yes, it is quite odd that Iran hasn't cut off oil exports, especially as there is good reason to expect the US to attack them soon.

Regarding whether Judaism is a race. For Jews their religion is their race. They don't accept converts. (Superficially sometimes they do, but really they don't). If someone has a Jewish mother they qualify as a Jew, but merely having a Jewish father does not qualify. They have separate funeral parlours from gentiles - they don't want to be mixed up with animals. They call non-Jews "goyim" which means "cattle". They call non-Jewish women "schiksa" which means "tainted meat". If there is an accident and a Jew is harmed or killed they are supposed to get a Jewish ambulance crew pick them up. They are greatly insulted by suggestions that since Arabs are also Semites they are very much the same biologically. Also there are certain physical characteristics that are slightly more common amongst Jews than amongst Arabs. But I won't go into that. And their history (in their holy books) is very important to them, and they feel a blood bond with that. Even Jews who have converted to other religions still feel the blood loyalty to their ancestors.

 

[EGOR]

Ever feel like yus are goin around in circles here. Being sucked in like little ants by the big ol ant eaters of power. Hell they love it. They say "Keep em arguing amongst themselves" and steer them via media propaganda into taking sides... lol, We got them all now.
Ladies and Gentlemen - Welcome to our new TV show its called "The blame game" and your host is "The Power" our contestents today are... ( the little people ) . Those Muslims love it... so do them Jews, and Bush and the rest of em... shoot they got y,all arguing amongst yourselves again...lol. They got y,all "Taking sides" shit those guys have got you exactly where they want you. While your all arguing in a big circle with each other saying whos the bigger "Bastards" dont ya know that the real bastards "on the top level" are doing deals. As soon as you take sides y,all playing right into them sweaty hands... and I aint just talking about the west here folks.. The "Top Level" is world wide and it applies to every culture and every country...So dont be sheep now little people....and open your eyes, cause yus are all saying exactly what they want you to say.


www.Agankast.com

 

[Norsemaiden]

Egor, I think Agenkast is a great band and I was going to pm you about some things, but I see that you don't want to be contacted.

 

[Horus]

So I'm standing in my kitchen cutting up some watermelon (which I'm currently enjoing) andI see on the news "US and France trying to come to an agreement on a way to stop Middle East fighting". I find it amusing that the US and France are trying to stop a war in an area of the world that neither country really has any right to be involved in.

 

[infoterror]

One of these days Israel will have to replace their WW2 mentality, and bring themselves up to date on the modern world.

What part of the modern world is any saner? Did the US/UK attack Iraq for the same reasons?

The modern world is the @#$@##$ problem!

 

[EGOR]

Egor, I think Agenkast is a great band and I was going to pm you about some things, but I see that you don't want to be contacted.

But Norsemaidem it could not work between us! you are a tall beutifull women of great inteligence....and i am but a short midget with a limp leg and bad grammar... please dont build up my hopes in this way. Dont make me suffer like this ..... making me think.. maybe?...a small chance, just maybe?.. she could see through the height difference , the chair and the hook nose. I know your just being kind to me, maybe you just feel sorry for me or want to mother me like all the rest. Ive been there before... ( once ) please my darling save yourself for a young muscle bound black guy or whatever... I can only offer you love... no .. I must go now .. im sorry, farewell my darling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZCOg1aHwIk