Jesus Gibson, Mel Christ, Whatever the Hell er-- Heaven (Earth, whatever)

[JayKeeley]

And don't forget the Book of the Dead. "Klaatu Varata Niktu"!

All joking aside, is there some sort of transcript summary of the parts where the Dead Sea Scrolls 'point to Jesus', and is he specifically mentioned as "Jesus of Nazareth" with some ties to God?

Remember, shop smart...shop S-Mart.

 

[J.]

Excellent point ChiefB.

It must also be stated that many atheists (and I've talked to them about this) acknowledge that Jesus did exist and that he was a teacher of morality, peace, and kindness. These same atheists actually agree with his teachings. However, they do not acknowledge that he was the Son of God, or any of the other "supernatural" stuff found in the Bible.

They see Jesus as a man that spoke out against the Roman and Jewish propaganda of the time, and that he died for his cause.

I wonder if in 2000 years, people (assuming we still exist) will claim that World War II never happened or perhaps the Civil War, or the Holocaust (oops, too late).

 

[ChiefB]

And don't forget the Book of the Dead. "Klaatu Varata Niktu"!

Did you know there are three Book of the deads written by three civilisations. The Egyptians, The Assyrians and one other I can't think of. The Assyrian book of the dead (not covered in human flesh) is actually held in the British Library Antiquities Division) - this is around 2,500 - 3,000 years old.

By the way, "Klaatu Varata Niktu" - (Evil Dead) - isn't that also what the robot said from 'The Day the Earth Stood still' or some old sci-fi film.

Remember, shop smart...shop S-Mart.

But you and Haddsie shop at K-mart. I don't get it?

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

It must also be stated that many atheists (and I've talked to them about this) acknowledge that Jesus did exist and that he was a teacher of morality, peace, and kindness. These same atheists actually agree with his teachings. However, they do not acknowledge that he was the Son of God, or any of the other "supernatural" stuff found in the Bible.

I have no problem with that statement; I specifically said that Jesus Christ as depicted in the Bible was a farce. I'm sure there was a do-gooder by that name who existed in those times. I'm sure he did things. But resurrection? Walking on water? Please.

I wonder if in 2000 years, people (assuming we still exist) will claim that World War II never happened or perhaps the Civil War, or the Holocaust (oops, too late).

Only if they are morons. You keep trying to draw an analogy where there is none. What fantastical impossibilities happened during any of those historical events that would cause anyone to disbelieve their actual occurance? The Holocaust example is merely a conspiracy theory brought to light by anti-Semites. Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows it happened. For fuck's sake, there is physical proof.

Where is the physical proof of Jesus Christ as depicted in the Bible, specifically the New Testament?

 

[NAD]

It must also be stated that many atheists (and I've talked to them about this) acknowledge that Jesus did exist and that he was a teacher of morality, peace, and kindness. These same atheists actually agree with his teachings. However, they do not acknowledge that he was the Son of God, or any of the other "supernatural" stuff found in the Bible.

I'm a bit in this category, except I'm not sure if the man really existed (but it doesn't matter because his teachings do exist), and I'm not a hardline atheist.

I understand that many people don't trust history books or the Bible as historical fact, but it is a bit perplexing when some don't believe in something so recent as the Holocaust.

 

[NAD]

Where is the physical proof of Jesus Christ as depicted in the Bible, specifically the New Testament?

I don't really see the point in finding the proof with something like this. It'd be like trying to prove that Romulus and Remus founded ancient Rome, it's just a belief.

 

[J.]

It can't be proven because we just don't know, like ChiefB said. It happened over 2000 years ago, and all documentation has been destroyed or changed by translation.

People can beat this dead horse to.....death and they still won't find answers. Some people choose not to believe in "fantastical impossibilities", believing everything can be explained by science and that there is no God, destiny, fate, what have you....

I choose to believe that those "fantastical impossibilities" are indeed possible.

It's really that simple. You asked for proof. I have none to give, nor do I need any.

 

[Novembers Paul]

It's really that simple. You asked for proof. I have none to give, nor do I need any.

That's exactly what FAITH is all about.

Well said.

 

[JayKeeley]

I'd still like to see the reference to Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I only ask because I've not found any evidence as such, and considering the church has had the actual scrolls under lock and key since 1947 makes me wonder how people speculate either way. There are several books that discuss the conspiracy behind what is contained in the Scrolls, one of which explains that the concept of Christianity existing 100 years or so before the time that Jesus would have lived. Of course, if this came to light, the church (and specifically New Testament teachings) would buckle.

But hey, there are hacidic Jews in my neighborhood that teach their children that dinosaur fossils are all 'fake', and that it is a test of faith from God, where the existence of dinosaurs and prehistoric life would discount the concept of Adam and Steve....er, I mean, Eve.

There is no light at the end of this debate either way. When there is nothing in writing, no hard evidence, no specific proof, the bottom line always points to having 'faith'. And you can't argue with someone's faith.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

I don't really see the point in finding the proof with something like this. It'd be like trying to prove that Romulus and Remus founded ancient Rome, it's just a belief.

The point, NAD, is that so many people - not necessarily anyone here - cram their BELIEFS down your throat. They protest and look down on anyone who doesn't share those beliefs, and often wield their collective might to generally make life miserable for others. Not that they really affect me, I'm just sayin' is all.

Having grown up Roman Catholic, I know how fucking evil they are.

 

[J.]

But hey, there are hacidic Jews in my neighborhood that teach their children that dinosaur fossils are all 'fake', and that it is a test of faith from God, where the existence of dinosaurs and prehistoric life would discount the concept of Adam and Steve....er, I mean, Eve.

I must admit though, that I'm very skeptical about the dinosaurs. And yes, I believe the existed. But I'm skeptical about all this carbon dating mumbo jumbo. Scientists have gone back on their findings so many times concerning carbon dating that it's ridiculous.

And now we have one of the leading scientists of dinosaurs saying that the asteroid that wiped them out hit earth 300,000 years before the dinosaurs existed.

I mean, c'mon....

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

It can't be proven because we just don't know, like ChiefB said. It happened over 2000 years ago, and all documentation has been destroyed or changed by translation.

People can beat this dead horse to.....death and they still won't find answers. Some people choose not to believe in "fantastical impossibilities", believing everything can be explained by science and that there is no God, destiny, fate, what have you....

I choose to believe that those "fantastical impossibilities" are indeed possible.

It's really that simple. You asked for proof. I have none to give, nor do I need any.

Fair enough. You believe in fairytales, I choose the rationale, scientifically-supported route. I don't like you any less.

 

[J.]

People claim that Christians constantly bother them at home or whatever. You want to know how many times I've been visited by Christians at my home (whether it be my parent's home, apartments, my new house, etc)? One (1) time. And that one time, the people were invited because my family was looking for a new church to attend.

Other than that 1 occasion, no Christian has loitered at my place of residence, and I live in Texas! I have gotten visits from Mormons, though I don't consider them to be Christians.

And if a visit to a home is "shoving their beliefs down your throat", that's just weak.

 

[NAD]

And now we have one of the leading scientists of dinosaurs saying that the asteroid that wiped them out hit earth 300,000 years before the dinosaurs existed.

I read about that the other day, the new theory (so far unpopular one) is that a virus wiped them out, I think?

The point, NAD, is that so many people - not necessarily anyone here - cram their BELIEFS down your throat. They protest and look down on anyone who doesn't share those beliefs, and often wield their collective might to generally make life miserable for others. Not that they really affect me, I'm just sayin' is all.

Well yeah, fuck those arsewipes. I used to get into it with my whacked out neighbors when I was 10 all the time, they knew all kinds of crazy crap as fact, and always told me I was going straight to hell.

...considering the church has had the actual scrolls under lock and key since 1947...

Cue Roswell conspiracy and matching Hypocrisy soundtrack.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

Nope, not at all. I've never been solicited door-to-door either. I'm talking about their general influence over politics, entertainment, the Government, etc. The Christian Coalition in the United States alone is an enormous, vastly powerful and respected collective. Like it or not - you apparently do - they shape the way things happen in this country. They influence what is and is not acceptable by the "masses" (no pun intended).

Seeing as how their teachings and reasoning are based on NOTHING MORE THAN BELIEF AND OPINION, it drives me batty.

 

[J.]

Don't really know about the Christian Coalition. I'm sure it's a non-profit organization that uses its donations for lobbying purposes though. Which is why I don't support Christian groups or even attend a church.

I'm not saying churches are crooked, but they are misguided by greed and illusion. For example, churches collect tithes every service and 99% of the time that money goes to improving the church itself with new facilities and nicer equipment. Was Jesus (according to the Bible) worried about buying a fancier baptismal? No. He gave what he had to the poor, which is what these churches should be doing. Hell, I occasionally give the homeless man on the corner a few bucks. It's the least I can do.

You see what I'm saying? It's almost like a competition between the denominations. Instead of bickering, they should all go back to the source and actually read what it says instead of reading what they choose to read.

And don't even get me started on the Vatican, which is basically just a corporation.

And as far as our laws being steeped in Christian law, blame it on the pilgrims.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

True 'dat holmes. If there's anything worse than the Roman Catholic Church, it's the Puritan laws/values/ideals the Brits stuck us with. Thanks a lot JayKeeley & ChiefB, you sodding bastards!

Look, you know me well enough to realize that I have no problem with any person's beliefs. I've always encouraged independant thought and individualism. I greatly respect it, regardless of whether or not your views match mine. It'd be a boring world if we all thought the same.

My beef is when people force their beliefs/faiths/values/whatever on others. No other organized religious group is more guilty of this than Christianity and its many offshoots. Therein lies my disdain, though on the whole, I'm not in favor of organized religion, period.

 

[ChiefB]

This discussion has opened quite a few threads in itself.

Gugs brings up a crucial debate about the so called indoctrination of Christianity or any religion. I feel that its very important to have a rounded education in both fields because only when you have both sets of facts can you come to a conclusion. But to implement a strategem, like in the Southern States, where the teaching of Evolution is barred, forces home the notion that these peolpe really are retarded in terms of their educational make-up. And these people then have the nerve to accuse other countries of being closed minded.

Carbon Dating has been superceded by other techniques to date said material. The famous "shroud of turin" proved carbon dating to be useless and so was the shroud. Again, Faith and Sensibility are two things that oppose one another because on one hand, the extremists say that all fossils are a test of the human faith yet on the other they are quite happy to use the same science for their triple heart bypass or whatever operation to save their life. For a religious zealot, science in all forms contradict their belief system.

 

[J.]

But to implement a strategem, like in the Southern States, where the teaching of Evolution is barred, forces home the notion that these peolpe really are retarded in terms of their educational make-up. And these people then have the nerve to accuse other countries of being closed minded.

um, no. I was blatantly taught the theory of evolution in middle school, high school, and in college. It is Creationism that is barred from being taught, due to the "separation of church and state".

 

[NAD]

I remember in high school we had to get parent permission slips to learn about evolution. Pretty goofy if you ask me.