Let's talk about Avantasia.

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Children of the Dream
May 13, 2007
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Now that I've given enough time for these albums to really sink in and allow me to give some genuine criticism, I guess I'll share my full opinions on these.

I know I shouldn't try to expect The Metal Operas Pt. 3 and 4 from these albums, but it's just kind of hard to accept such a drastic stylistic change from those two to the Scarecrow. Even though Tobi's musical style took a big turn with Edguy, you'd think he'd at least keep Avantasia the same. I loved these albums when they first came out, but I think a lot of that was due to the long wait and so much hype from Tobi. So I'll try to think of these as their own separate entities, because, well, they are. They're not the Metal Operas, they're something completely different.

That said... The Wicked Symphony has some incredible moments and is easily the stronger of the two albums, to me. There are so many amazing songs on this album, I'd say just about all of them are winners, the only mediocre tracks being Black Wings and The Edge (and maaaybe Crestfallen, but I have to admit I find it pretty enjoyable). Even the poppiness of Dying For An Angel I like. I'm still impressed with how amazing The Wicked Symphony, Wastelands, and Scales of Justice are, with the exception of that little groovy breakdown in Scales of Justice. They're just stunning. No, it's not The Seven Angels, but hey, they're still great.

Angel of Babylon, however, fails. Stargazers and the title track are really the only outstanding songs to me. Death Is Just A Feeling and Your Love Is Evil are okay. Most of the others are disgustingly mediocre and forgettable. I also don't understand the point of replacing Kiske's vocals with Jorn's in the rehashed Promised Land. It's not bad, per se, but I prefer good ol' Ernie singing those lines instead. Jorn has such a massive part in these albums that it gets kind of tiresome by the end of Angel of Babylon. It's just full of sappy/poppy ballads/average songs that I just can't help being appalled by - Alone I Remember doesn't sound at all like Avantasia, much more like something Jorn would release himself. Yuck.

I'd have to agree with a lot of other people that it may have just been better to release one solid album with a mixture of tracks from both albums. In the end, all I see is a bunch of average songs more in line with modern Edguy than I do Avantasia mixed with a few truly blistering power metal songs. I'm just baffled by how Tobias can still write such incredible power metal songs, yet turn the other cheek half the time and release generic pop material.

Oh, well. I suppose it's time to wait for the new Edguy album to be announced. Gulp...
 
I'd be hard pushed to call any Avantasia songs 'disgustingly mediocre' but I agree with you that the stylistic change from Metal Opera to Scarecrow has been maintained and that TWS is the strongest of the two releases. It sounds like I'm with you on preferring the Metal Opera stuff and classic Edguy sounds but I'm not so critical of AoB even if it is a bit more down-tempo (latest Sonata album from memory was quite mellow but still great).
 
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have no problem whatsoever with midtempo stuff. However, most of that type of music on the new Avantasia just seems plodding and trite to me. A lot of that annoyance comes from the lyrics, too. They're just terrible, in my opinion. I find that Sonata did that sort of thing correctly on their new album, with wonderful lyrics and instrumentation to keep things interesting, but Avantasia not so much. It's almost more rock than metal and that's what I'm disappointed about, considering he once made, well, The Metal Operas under the same name.
 
You know I suspect we're both alike in that we want most the 'metal' in our 'power metal' bands :D I'm listening to Wicked Symphony now, groovy little breakdown in Scales of Justice irked me in the same way but it's forgiveable. In fact a lot of AoB is after repeated listens. The funky Jason Becker-esque start to Alone I Remember might put some off but it gives way to a decent song if a little...pop-y in places.
 
I wish Jens was used more, too. One song is not enough. :lol:
 
thats how i feel when it comes to the Scarecrow trilogy. AoB is just so anticlimactic when you try to think of the trilogy being a concept. AoB does have good songs but i think about the concept when i listen to the albums and the final album just doesn't sound very parallel to the "story" most of the time.
 
i haven't ever really gotten a chance to check into avantasia before i have heard the song "lost in space" though and i must say i LOVED it! does very much of there other music sound like that?
 
i haven't ever really gotten a chance to check into avantasia before i have heard the song "lost in space" though and i must say i LOVED it! does very much of there other music sound like that?

Well, if you like Lost In Space, you'll probably like the newer stuff from the albums The Scarecrow, The Wicked Symphony, and Angel of Babylon.

Their first two albums, The Metal Operas, are very symphonic power metally, not like Lost In Space at all. The Scarecrow (the album with Lost In Space) is much different, still power metal but much more poppy and hard rock at times. The new two albums, The Wicked Symphony and Angel of Babylon, are in the same vein as The Scarecrow but more refined, I'd say.
 
Well, if he's looking for stuff like Lost In Space, he'd be better off with songs like Carry Me Over. I suggest you take a look at The Scarecrow and especially the Lost In Space EPs - even though the Lost In Space songs are mostly covers and songs that really have nothing to do with Avantasia, you'd probably like them.

Though if you want truly epic power metal, Dom is right, the two Metal Opera albums are just classic. But if you want specific, truly epic power metal songs...

The Tower
The Seven Angels
The Scarecrow
The Wicked Symphony
Stargazers
(all of the above are long songs, so beware... the following songs are shorter)
Shelter From the Rain
Wastelands
Another Angel Down
Promised Land

are all fine songs to start off with. :p
 
i tend to agree with 1928 the last 3 are not anything ike the first 2 avantasia albums

when i first put on the wicked symphony i though cool the start of that album with the orchestration is exactly what i love about Avantasia - the way Toby mixes the metal with the great orchestration is a beautiful thing, but listen a wee bit more and what you get is more of scarecrow and what i think is 2 albums of vocalists and guitarists competing to out do the other.

also missing are the little instrumentals that the first 2 cds had, these are gems of music - but scarecrow onwards have none of these.

the renaissance strings, pan pipes, bombastic orchestration and monster double kick (eg glory of rome, breaking away) is totally gone, i think the use of different instrumentation was what gave those first 2 albums there difference and power. The bass playing of Markus from Helloween and Drumming of Alex (Rhapsody) on the entire album on the metal opera part 1 made it much more powerful and heavy, Eric singer is too pop/rock and not metal enough. - also not enough input from Ernie on all 3 albums , and maybe a little too much Jorn but not entirely a bad thing as he rocks.

i think/guess Toby had more money to play with this time around and then went all out to get big names (on vocals) to pump the albums up rather than honing the tunes and doing more orchestration on the music.

have to mention the production as well - you play metal opera part one and listen to the drums and even the bass then put on angel of Babylon the kick and snare on metal opera blows away the drum sound on AOB ( on aob the kick and snare are so low in the mix its loses all power from the power metal sound on the double kicking songs) - and i have CDS yes i bought them, im not judging this on a cheap download, i own good gear its not played through some pissy hifi system) - if say the song AOB had the triggered monster kick and snare ie sound of metal opera part one and even 2 the mix would sound sooo much better - the drums are too washy and thin in the mix and not heavy enough (listen to stargazers the double kick is so low in the mix)- i know alex was playing on the song AOB but im sure he wasnt sitting in the control room on the mix, have a listen to rat race the same snare and kick sound are used with Eric singer so this must be a decision from ultimately Toby and its baby so he can do what he wants - so be it - but i think it could have sounded better - the guitars are super heavy but they need to sit on a nice monster kick and snare - enough said

i have had both albums ( amazon purchased cds) in my car for the last month driving to and from work everyday listening to them non stop and then at home on a hifi floor standing speaker system .......and i do like both albums in general.

i have to say i love Bob Catley's vocals on the "runaway train" and think this is a fantastic song and well written, i just wish he sung on more songs.

after one month of listening my favs are as follows:

AOB
Runaway train
stargazers ( but its 4 mins tooo long)
alone i remember ( did anyone think SKID ROW monkey business ripp offff)
Promised Land - but the Ernie version is way better for sure

TWS
wastelands - this song seriously kicks arse (kISKE/ERNIE kicks arse on this its epic)
wicked symphony -i like the first 3 mins of the wicked symphony ..please TOBY bring back more orchestration
scales of justice - great songs (but should have used Kai hansen and ernie on this)
dying for an angel - ok song but man its a rip off of lost in space to the T , the melody and phrasing are almost the same
runaway train - a fantastic song, perfect in every-way
forever is a long time ( the chorus is awesome and the STEVE VAI style guitar solo from Ollie is very cool - he is a great player thats for sure i really love his tone and his vibrato is perfect)
states of matter - but ernie should have sung this

-imho - black wings - alice cooper should have sung this with Toby :cry:


anyway thats my 2 cents worth - yes its easy to criticize something i never touched or that i could even write/produce myself....and with 100% 20/20 hindsight, im sure Toby would still change stuff on them now after listening to them 500 times or more

i have to say im a huge MUSIC fan and i love listening to AVANTASIA - why do i buy albums from toby and gang because i know im gonna get a quality product and i want more and more. when i first heard the metal opera part 1 way back in 2001 what we got was top notch production and quality music - look if toby farted into a mic and recorded it, just because it had avantasia stamped on the cd i wouldnt buy it - im not a crazy fanboy like that - i just hope next time the orchestration and varied instrumentation of the first 2 will one day come back to the avantasia camp - yes i know toby says he is always moving forward etc etc and fuck you if you don't agree with him and i agree with that, but ac/dc and iron maiden never really broke there winning formula and they are still touring and playing and selling millions of albums and something has to be said about that, just think a little about that please Toby if you ever read this

hey i have recorded and played on a few albums in my time and those albums aren't perfect by a long shot .....that is for sure but i think i know what sounds good...

let me know what you think - im open minded

looseunit@hotmail.com

cheers
:headbang:
 
Sadly, since I believe Tobias and/or the rest of Edguy have stated their disdain for Dragonforce, I don't think that will ever happen.
 
After all I've said on these albums and Avantasia/Edguy/Tobias in general, I have to at least say this: I went back and listened to the new Avantasia. Overall my opinions remain the same... and as much as I dislike Angel of Babylon, the title track, Stargazer, Promised Land, Your Love Is Evil... I LOVE those songs. Specifically the title track and Stargazer... unbelievable! Two of the best power metal songs in recent years, in my opinion. Funny how the rest of the album doesn't hold up at all to me, though!