Loomis Plains Production

M

malmsteve

New Metal Member
Jul 22, 2006
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Is it just me or is the new loomis record, way too bass centered. There was no definition in the rhythm guitars to my ear, sounded almost noisy compared to the holy grail tone of godless. I couldn't get around that droning bass heavy sound in the recording to get much definition, which is a shame because loomis's riffs are so strong and evil.

It almost sounds like direct tones say from a axe fx.

Great album and awesome playing- no one can touch loomis as far as a metal shredder and songwriter for sure, but was expecting much more fanciful production to please my uppity producion tastes.

Any opinions or thoughts from the gallery?
 
It sounds pretty good, don't get me wrong, there is some element missing like either the bass guitar is overpowering the mix or too many sub frequencies, I wanted to hear more definition, just my personal taste thats all, I know a lot of people like that heavy low endy 7 string rumble thing going on.
 
The bass is completely balanced on my end, listening on Yamaha HS80's.
 
Low-end sounds quite good here (same monitors as Aaron mixed on). The balancing job is good too, I thought! Worlds better than the first solo album.

Regarding the guitar tone... I think I know what you mean, but I would not attribute it to the mix at all. IMO it's that awful Ash and 707 combo. Basically just asking for the flattest mids around. Aaron did great with it all in the mix.
 
Hmmm, maybe its my stereo but godless endeavor seems not be as mushy, I wanna say. His lead tone is amazing tho, nice and upfront and crystal clear, awesome cd.
 
TGE isn't as mushy but it's also super abrasive and fatiguing in the top end in comparison.

Not to mention the focus on this album is the leads, not the rhythm guitars - they're supposed to be smoother and more subdued.
 
Thanks for the props guys, and I never mind hearing mix critiquing!

My comments on the amount of bass in the mix—I'm personally quite satisfied with it, and if anything it could probably still afford another dB or two of bass guitar low end without being overdone. Jeff also remarked several times throughout the whole recording process that he loves hearing/feeling a lot of bass, and actually explicitly said that he'd be happy to hear more than on the Nevermore recordings. If my memory serves me right, "This Godless Endeavor" is probably one of Andy's least bassy productions, at least that I've personally heard.

As for the rhythm guitar tone, listening back I definitely feel good about how it sits with the rest of the mix elements, and I don't find myself at all dwelling for long on things like "Gah! It needs to be so much brighter!" or "The woofy frequency range is way wrong!". It would have been interesting to see if the clarity and definition improved with some combination of a little less amp gain/high frequency shelf boosting, but the initial pressure from Jeff, for at least a good week while I was still getting the whole mix dialed in, was "I think it might need more gain!". I told him that if it came down to it by the end, and he still definitely wanted more gain, I was willing to reamp again or do whatever I needed to do for him to be satisfied, but he listened to all the mixes I was sending him quite a lot and eventually really started feeling it.

Back to "This Godless Endeavor"...it's a cool rhythm tone for sure, but I'm not naturally inclined to mix a record to sound that bright and bitey. It doesn't sound "wrong", but as JeffTD mentioned, it does get fatiguing when listening all the way through the album.

Anyway, lastly I would just say that high-gain metal riffing electric guitar definition is one of the toughest things to get absolutely perfect really, plus everyone, even more so in the metal world, has their own idea of what the "perfect guitar tone" is. Metal tones vary pretty wildly actually from one mix to another or from one producer to another, and I'd say that the "Plains..." rhythm tone is about 95% of what I'd like it to be, which just motivates me to hunt down that last 5% in the next tone I have to dial in!
 
Aaron Smith said:
Anyway, lastly I would just say that high-gain metal riffing electric guitar definition is one of the toughest things to get absolutely perfect
Click to expand...

Had to throw a fat +1 in here.

Next to kick/bass/guitar low-end balancing, this is one of the hardest things about mixing in any genre, anywhere, ever.

I almost always trade off rhythm guitar high-mid note clarity in order to gain vocal presence and back-to-front depth for the whole mix. Fatiguing, bright guitar sounds generally don't have a 'lasting' quality. Glad you tackled them as you did, Aaron.
 
Aaron Smith said:
but the initial pressure from Jeff, for at least a good week while I was still getting the whole mix dialed in, was "I think it might need more gain!".
Click to expand...

I can definitely believe that. Listening to nevermore's last two albums, and especially "obsidian conspiracy", it seems to me that there's more gain in the guitars than it needs to be, especially for the kind of intricate riffing Jeff does.
I think it was "dead heart..." where he (or andy?) got the amount of gain exactly right.

Btw, we still don't know which amp was used in this album, unless it was posted somewhere and I missed it. Can you share this information?
 
Keregioz said:
Btw, we still don't know which amp was used in this album, unless it was posted somewhere and I missed it. Can you share this information?
Click to expand...

Was just about to ask the same question. I don't remember reading it in the other thread, but I'll check again.
 
I thought I'd written about the amps once, but maybe I didn't!

The rhythms are an EVH 5150 III, no boost. I messed around for a while with introducing a boost, but I just wasn't digging it. The cabinet is my usual Lopo 2x12 Extension Cabinet, loaded with Celestion Vintage 30s, which I've been using for several years now on all my productions. I don't even remember how I came across the company, but I just wanted a solid 2x12 sitting around at home for reamping purposes, and I took a chance with them. I've never been unhappy with the sound I've gotten out of it (tight low end, good low end extension for a 2x12), and I also like the fact that the grill is easily removable, which adds a helpful visual element to the sweet-spot mic placement search. I actually put it up against my standard Mesa 4x12 once for fun, and I actually thought the Mesa sounded like poo, but I also don't know the entire history of my Mesa, and the tolex is pretty beat up on it. No blown speakers, but definitely buzzier sounding, in a bad way.

For leads, Jeff and I did a shootout between the EVH, my two-channel Dual rec, and my block letter 5150. The block letter won hands-down, but the EVH wasn't too far behind. We both liked the Mesa the least. Honestly, I've had the Dual rec for probably three years, and it has never won a spot on one of my productions via shootout. I believe we used a Maxon OD820 for a boost on the leads, and then obviously dialed in more gain too. The block letter just had a nice buttery quality to it, and the pick attack cut through nicely as well. It was honestly kind of a surprise, but then again, the 5150 has been my go-to amp for such a long time...it really seems like it's actually hard to make it sound bad!

Also to clarify, we tracked all the rhythms and leads through his Axe-Fx, and then reamped before mixing. Both of the Axe-Fx tones were pretty cool and convincing during tracking, enough so to make me think "Maybe we could get away with using this lead tone for the final mix!", but it fell flat next to the reamps. We actually spent a long time fiddling with every little weird setting we could for the lead tone on the Axe-Fx, because Jeff had a very particular set of tonal ideals to complement his lead playing, and I'm glad we spent the time we did, just because I think it meant his playing translated well to the 5150.
 
I listened to this album like 50 times today and I just love it, the production is just awesome really great work! I usually like more top end definition on the rhythm guitars as some guys mentioned, but i feel that this ones don't need that shit it at all, it probably would just kill the intelligibility of the leads and of course we don't want that ;)

Really awesome record, congratulations to Aaron :)
 
Genius Gone Insane said:
Went to Rasputin's to buy it just now and...it's not out yet. A half hour out of my day wasted. Thanks for letting me know, assholes. This is the thanks I get for being honest and actually paying for CDs.
Click to expand...

Just checked iTunes and it said it came out today, April 10th, so buy away! I know I'm going to...
 
@Aaron : was it double or quadtracked for rythms ?

Listening to the "escape velocity" and "tragedy and harmony" intros tells me double-tracked and not that much gain, but then when all the guitars kick in i'm not sure if there are more than 2 rythm guitars (sounds more distorted and less articulate, but that might also be due to the other elements (lead guitars, bass, drums, vocals) being there too...

I love the guitar tone on all the spots where there is only one rythm guitar playing. Sounds like hard picking with not too much gain. Very articulate yet powerful and agressive tone. Me lovey.

Congrats on the overall production, you did a killer job ! Love those tones for the most part.
 
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