Marshall > Mesa and Peavey etc. for metal?!

[Clark Kent]

That doesn't even come close to producing the same effect.

Using a tubescreamer just makes everything sound better if you're after a saturated, liquidy fluid, yet TIGHT high gain modern metal sound. Every time I hear someone trying to achieve that kind of sound without boosting at all, it always sounds weak/undergained/dull in comparison. It just doesn't have the same power behind it. No tubescreamer = instant turn off for me...

That was the whole point. I don't want to sound like every other guitarist out there and I feel like the TS has that effect. I know it's easier to play with a tube screamer and a noise gate on and sure I've done that a lot. But basically it's a low cut, middle boost and volume bump in front and that will give you a cool sound especially if you're using an overly scooped amp like a Recto f.ex. It can also be used to make amps that aren't "metal" do metal. Amazing tool! I respect the TS for sure. I just feel like for me personally I like my tone if it make it work without the TS.

 

[Clark Kent]

Far from a scientific shootout

I'd love to see a scientific shootout on what candy tastes best. No wait... taste issues can't be scientifically proven.

But I'm sure we'd all love to get the chance to test all these amps in a studio environment but that's not the case for most of us.

Although those guys are Russians (j/k) I don't think they intended to make those amps sound bad. More like they emphasized on what the amps sound like naturally with noonish EQ settings and no tricks.

I almost went to try one of those Marshalls out at our local guitar shop today. I was literally 10 metres away... maybe tomorrow? I'll give you guys some feedback on it.

 

[Josh Burgess]

I don't want to sound like every other guitarist out there and I feel like the TS has that effect. I know it's easier to play with a tube screamer and a noise gate on and sure I've done that a lot.

Seriously? It's not about "sounding like every other guitarist out there" or it supposedly being "easier to play"... It's about it simply sounding better. It's more aggressive and clean players can really make use of the faster/tighter response.

And even if it did make every guitarist sound the same (which I very much disagree with), I'd rather use a good tone that happens to sound similar to other popular modern metal productions and stand out with original music/original phrasing than simply use a different (inferior) guitar sound just for the sake of being different...

 

[Fragle]

, I'd rather use a good tone that happens to sound similar to other popular modern metal productions and stand out with original music/original phrasing than simply use a different (inferior) guitar sound just for the sake of being different...

....worked for old school sweden death
but i get your point & agree.

 

[Clark Kent]

This is very offtopic but here goes.

Seriously? It's not about "sounding like every other guitarist out there" or it supposedly being "easier to play"... It's about it simply sounding better. It's more aggressive and clean players can really make use of the faster/tighter response.

1) Sounding better is always relative to what you're looking for in a tone. I might not even be talking about metal tones here you know. I just like the fact that different amps have a different growl to them and feel like tubescreamers sometimes kill that. Ofcourse there are times when a tubescreamer makes a crappy sounding amp sound like a dream but who would use such an amp in the first place? (winks @ Recto)

2) I feel like "easier to play" and "faster/tighter response" is the same thing. I'd rather be able to play tight without a tubescreamer and a noise gate which I'm confident enough to say I'm capable of doing. Not being a douche... I sure recommend the TS+NS trick to guitar players who profit from the effect.

And even if it did make every guitarist sound the same (which I very much disagree with), I'd rather use a good tone that happens to sound similar to other popular modern metal productions and stand out with original music/original phrasing than simply use a different (inferior) guitar sound just for the sake of being different...

Well if I hear: "I'm using a TS to boost my 5150 into a Recto cab", I'm sure as hell not thinking: "Wow, that's original!". Ofcourse we all have heard a tone somewhere that we liked and want to replicate that. That happens to all of us guitarists. I don't think a tone as generic as that will stand out in a song anymore since it's been heard over and over again for at least ten years.

This is just my philosophy on the matter and you don't have to agree with me but all "great" guitarists in the history of music have a tone of their own. Jimi Hendrix, Slash, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Mark Knopfler, John Petrucci, Tom Morello etc. They all sound different and somewhat came up with their own sound to make them stand out. I'd love to see guitarists coming up with their own sounds whether or not it's a boosted sound or not.

 

[Firaxis]

This is just my philosophy on the matter and you don't have to agree with me but all "great" guitarists in the history of music have a tone of their own. Jimi Hendrix, Slash, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Mark Knopfler, John Petrucci, Tom Morello etc. They all sound different and somewhat came up with their own sound to make them stand out. I'd love to see guitarists coming up with their own sounds whether or not it's a boosted sound or not.

This is definitely true. Personally I don't like a tubescreamer but then again my opinion on great guitar sound seems to differ from a lot of people on this forum. I also don't associate "smooth" with "aggressive" but a lot of people here do.

On topic, I prefer the Marshall!

 

[JakeAC5253]

This is just my philosophy on the matter and you don't have to agree with me but all "great" guitarists in the history of music have a tone of their own. Jimi Hendrix, Slash, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Mark Knopfler, John Petrucci, Tom Morello etc. They all sound different and somewhat came up with their own sound to make them stand out. I'd love to see guitarists coming up with their own sounds whether or not it's a boosted sound or not.

How could all of these people be "pioneers in tone" if all or most used stock Marshall amps?

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

Agreed on the amps sounding undergained and not at all appropriate for the style being played IMO - and as for TS's, if you're using them the way most of us do (with the drive almost at 0 and the level set for unity gain between on/bypassed), it's an absolutely ridiculous assertion that they make all amps sound the same, simply because of how little they're processing the signal in comparison to all the gain stages in each amp that it's going through

 

[Clark Kent]

How could all of these people be "pioneers in tone" if all or most used stock Marshall amps?

I'm pretty sure none of those guys used stock Marshalls. Maybe Jimi... but then again do we really know? Those early Marshalls were usually always modded somehow. After that I'm only guessing you mean Slash who has been searching for his modded JCM800 tone all his life ever since he used one on Appetite for Destruction.

 

[Josh Burgess]

2) I feel like "easier to play" and "faster/tighter response" is the same thing. I'd rather be able to play tight without a tubescreamer and a noise gate which I'm confident enough to say I'm capable of doing. Not being a douche... I sure recommend the TS+NS trick to guitar players who profit from the effect.

What you're saying makes it sound like you think you are too skilled of a guitar player to need a tubescreamer to get that kind of effect,. You act like it's some crutch for poor guitar players, and that is absolutely ridiculous. If anything, I'd say it's the other way around... It benefits SKILLED players. It's much easier to hear when there are timing mistakes when the signal is crisp/clean/clear/quick and notes aren't blurring together due to a saggy/mushy/undefined guitar tone.

Tubescreamers and noise gates do not pick for you. They don't control your timing. They don't control how precise your picking is or how intricate your playing is. You will NEVER get the same quick/tight response without using a tubescreamer or overdrive/EQ pedal of some sort before the amp, no matter how good your rhythm timing is. It's not about your timing. It's about the response of the signal coming out of your cab. It just gives you a more immediate, percussive sound. It's a stylistic choice, not a crutch.

Well if I hear: "I'm using a TS to boost my 5150 into a Recto cab", I'm sure as hell not thinking: "Wow, that's original!". Ofcourse we all have heard a tone somewhere that we liked and want to replicate that. That happens to all of us guitarists. I don't think a tone as generic as that will stand out in a song anymore since it's been heard over and over again for at least ten years.

This is just my philosophy on the matter and you don't have to agree with me but all "great" guitarists in the history of music have a tone of their own. Jimi Hendrix, Slash, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Mark Knopfler, John Petrucci, Tom Morello etc. They all sound different and somewhat came up with their own sound to make them stand out. I'd love to see guitarists coming up with their own sounds whether or not it's a boosted sound or not.

I think you once again missed the point. I said I'd rather stand out with interesting, original music & playing/phrasing while using a guitar tone that I like, no matter how similar it may be to other modern metal albums, rather than trying to have an "original guitar tone" just for the sake of being different... If somebody ignores original music & phrasing just because they find the tools used to produce the tone to be a generic combination, no matter how well tracked/mixed/produced the playing is & how good the guitar tone sounds, then I feel bad for them.

Also, I've gotta say, although they are all great guitarists, I think most of the players you just listed have never had would I would call an amazing sounding guitar tone. They are known for their songwriting & overall playing style/ability, not their guitar tones. Even Petrucci, sure he's often had a great liquidy smooth lead tone, but the rhythm tone on most of his albums is so weak and messy... and it sure isn't because of his timing...

Personally, I couldn't care less whether you like using tubescreamers or not. You just say some highly inaccurate, ridiculous shit that deserves to be addressed...

 

[JakeAC5253]

The same guy that bags on my choice of Boost > 5150 > Boogie Cab rig is the same guy who is constantly pushing Match EQ as a professional engineering technique. Every time I turn my damn head to sign on here it's Match EQ this, Match EQ that. Here's a shootout, one of them's Match EQ'd, can you tell which? You want to know who is more truthful in their engineering? You got it. Yes, I use this rig, and I get a lot of different sounds out of it, just ask any that client I've reamped for and they'll tell you that I showed them a handful of very different sounding files in shootout format and never had one complaint. Hell, even the IR's that I make using this rig are very diverse in sound, and that's just the latter third of the rig! A guitar tone is not a culmination of gear, so even by using a well regarded rig, doesn't mean that all of my product sounds immediately just like every other boner who picked up a 6505 from GC. Recording a guitar tone is art through engineering, and as both artist and engineer, we can decide what ends up at the end... We run the gear, the gear doesn't run us...

Clark Kent, you sure aren't worth arguing with because I know you will never change the way you think. You've gone on record many times saying that you record your amp at quiet levels because you don't have the luxury of turning it up very frequently. Try recording your amp at the level I track at, and see where you are without a boost. Like I said, this is not so much aimed at Clark Kent, because I know he will just use it as fodder to continue trolling, but at the general public and anyone else reading.

...time for a beer.

 

[MarcusGHedwig]

What you're saying makes it sound like you think you are too skilled of a guitar player to need a tubescreamer to get that kind of effect,. You act like it's some crutch for poor guitar players, and that is absolutely ridiculous. If anything, I'd say it's the other way around... It benefits SKILLED players. It's much easier to hear when there are timing mistakes when the signal is crisp/clean/clear/quick and notes aren't blurring together due to a saggy/mushy/undefined guitar tone.

Tubescreamers and noise gates do not pick for you. They don't control your timing. They don't control how precise your picking is or how intricate your playing is. You will NEVER get the same quick/tight response without using a tubescreamer or overdrive/EQ pedal of some sort before the amp, no matter how good your rhythm timing is. It's not about your timing. It's about the response of the signal coming out of your cab. It just gives you a more immediate, percussive sound. It's a stylistic choice, not a crutch.

I think you once again missed the point. I said I'd rather stand out with interesting, original music & playing/phrasing while using a guitar tone that I like, no matter how similar it may be to other modern metal albums, rather than trying to have an "original guitar tone" just for the sake of being different... If somebody ignores original music & phrasing just because they find the tools used to produce the tone to be a generic combination, no matter how well tracked/mixed/produced the playing is & how good the guitar tone sounds, then I feel bad for them.

Gotta give a big ol' +1 to all of this

 

[Ermz]

All I've got to add to this convo is that the JVM is an awesome amp. I found myself favoring it in many instances where I'd normally use a 6505. Also, when it comes to tonal identity, I'd like to think that 95% of it comes directly from the player. There is so much to be said about the way that someone translates their performance through the instrument - not to mention how important the instrument itself is along with pick type, string type etc.

 

[Clark Kent]

I think we all agree on the matter. I don't even mean to argue with you guys. This is all about taste issues. I don't like "too much gain". My "too much gain" is "not enough gain" for most guys on this forum yet I still sound like metal. I just personally like that you can tell what guitar I'm using. I like that you can hear the small dynamic differences I make with my pick. If I was in a core band I'd also use tubescreamers but that's not the case. There is no wrong or right in tone so that's why none of us are right or wrong in this conversation. Forcing your philosophy on tone is just immature and if I came across that way then I'm apologize.

And personally I hate the fact that everyone is always turning the match EQ thing in to something negative. I feel like I've done a huge favor to people who can't afford high end gear and that's what it's always been about. At least I have "a thing". Yes I match EQ tones. Going through the match EQ process has given me a lot of information on "why" I like certain tones and how I want certain things to sound etc. I use my own real life setup for my own serious recordings, not even the Axe-Fx, not the matched tones. If I'm doing recordings to people with inferior gear I might use matched tones for them.

Can we please stay on topic from now on.