Master Comp GR!?!

[botus99]

How can i run a Waves SSL in dual mono on master buss in Cubase?

Same way you make any stereo plugin into dual-mono; open 2 mono instances of your compressor of choice, fuck with the insert routing (you may need to customize the view of your channel overview or something similar depending on your workflow) so the left side of the master fader goes to one while the right side goes to the other...

I suck at teaching but if you understood what I was trying to say, then BAM you win

 

[Pedro Teixeira]

Here's a question for you guys - when you're mixing into a master bus comp right from the get-go, how do you avoid having to constantly go into the comp and make sure the GR is where you want it to be? (since I'd imagine all the level, eq, comp., clipping, etc. decisions you make on the individual tracks would affect the overall GR on the MBC). Seems like it would get annoying having to readjust the threshold after most mix changes

What I usually do is start mixing the kick and bass and get that relationship right but always keeping an eye on the 2buss comp (I usually use a hardware one so it's easier to keep an eye on it), so I adjust how the compressor reacts to all of the low-end, after I get that right, when adding the rest of the drums elements, guitars, etc, I usually don't need to touch anything again on the compressor, "usually" may I repeat myself.

That's just how I do it, I'm sure there are hundreds of other ways as there are no exact set of rules obviously.

 

[crillemannen]

I knew it couldn't be just me. I was also already running in dual mono. It gets to that point of balancing glue, tightness, and not losing stereo image that's been a struggle lately.

Yeah, and if you're using it, stay away from the Gain button. It sounds so lofi...

API 2500 + SSL comp is an awesome combo. Just be sure that you use not more then 2-3db's of GR total with the two units.

 

[Ermz]

Here's a question for you guys - when you're mixing into a master bus comp right from the get-go, how do you avoid having to constantly go into the comp and make sure the GR is where you want it to be? (since I'd imagine all the level, eq, comp., clipping, etc. decisions you make on the individual tracks would affect the overall GR on the MBC). Seems like it would get annoying having to readjust the threshold after most mix changes

That's an easy one. Use outboard! The GR reading and threshold knob are always within view/reach.

Generally though after you've set the base kick/snare relationship, the comp won't move much from there. If you're gain structuring correctly you can approximate the final GR simply doing a faders/pan mix with your tracks. Even after the mix is finished, provided that you've gain-matched the processed outputs, it should all still be relatively even in balance. Perhaps a touch less reduction because of the lessened clutter/conflict within the mix, but relatively similar all the same.

 

[AboutBlank]

Yeah, and if you're using it, stay away from the Gain button. It sounds so lofi...

Do you mean makup gain or that analog button?

I enable the 2 buss comp when the drums and bass are balanced and in the raw shape I'm after.

no special settings(as mentioned by many, 4:1/auto/1 or 3 attack) GR round about 4.

I'm pretty interested in the dual mono thing but every way of how to achieve it(in my head) seem pretty circular...
Did somebody have a workaround?

I will try the demo of the glue today, every user raves about it and it seems that they use it not since yesterday.

For me the Waves SSL comp won against the UAD 4K, he's just more kinda aggressive and "gluey". But I'm still not 100% happy with it.
Would love to test a hardware G-Comp(like the Prime ones) though.

 

[crillemannen]

Do you mean makup gain or that analog button?

I enable the 2 buss comp when the drums and bass are balanced and in the raw shape I'm after.

no special settings(as mentioned by many, 4:1/auto/1 or 3 attack) GR round

I'm pretty interested in the dual mono thing but every way of how to achieve about 4.it(in my head) seem pretty circular...
Did somebody have a workaround?

I will try the demo of the glue today, every user raves about it and it seems that they use it not since yesterday.

For me the Waves SSL comp won against the UAD 4K, he's just more kinda aggressive and "gluey". But I'm still not 100% happy with it.
Would love to test a hardware G-Comp(like the Prime ones) though.

I meant the makeup gain in PT you can chose dual mono or stereo for every plugin.

I have the Prime SSl comp. I did some shootouts when i got it and i must say that the Waves one is pretty spot on the hardware.
The hardware fattens up the transients a bit, and have a slightly better stereo image, and have better make up gain. but if it is worth 800euro, hmm not sure really haha. I use the Prime on master bus and the Glue on drums, a awesome combo.

 

[laszlozsolt82]

Same way you make any stereo plugin into dual-mono; open 2 mono instances of your compressor of choice, fuck with the insert routing (you may need to customize the view of your channel overview or something similar depending on your workflow) so the left side of the master fader goes to one while the right side goes to the other...

I suck at teaching but if you understood what I was trying to say, then BAM you win

Sorry but i still don`t understand...You mean to put 2 mono comps on the stereo master Buss?I don`t think it`s gonna work. Anybody elese who can explain this a little more in detail? How can i route my mix to obtain 2 separat mono master busses, wich together sound in stereo?I think this is the key!?

 

[BLUElightCory]

In Pro Tools you can just select between multi-mono or stereo when you bring up the plug, but I'm assuming Cubase not allow this?

Sorry but i still don`t understand...You mean to put 2 mono comps on the stereo master Buss?I don`t think it`s gonna work. Anybody elese who can explain this a little more in detail? How can i route my mix to obtain 2 separat mono master busses, wich together sound in stereo?I think this is the key!?

Two separate mono busses panned hard L/R and a stereo bus are essentially the same thing as far as signal flow. You route your tracks' outputs to stereo bus 1-2 (for example) and then create two mono busses with busses 1 and 2 as inputs (bus 1 for left, bus 2 for right) and pan them left and right. Boom, you have a dual-mono bus that outputs in stereo.

The difference is that a compressor operating in linked stereo will reduce gain equally on both sides - so if you have a floor tom hit on the right, you'll get gain reduction on the left too. This can reduce the stereo image.

In a dual-mono setup, the compressor processes each side independently - this doesn't narrow the stereo image quite as much because there are more level differences between the left and right sides. This is how most analog consoles work.

 

[AboutBlank]

I meant the makeup gain in PT you can chose dual mono or stereo for every plugin.

I have the Prime SSl comp. I did some shootouts when i got it and i must say that the Waves one is pretty spot on the hardware.
The hardware fattens up the transients a bit, and have a slightly better stereo image, and have better make up gain. but if it is worth 800euro, hmm not sure really haha. I use the Prime on master bus and the Glue on drums, a awesome combo.

Ah, cheers for that.

makeup gain, I understand.

Dunno, maybe it's just the want of a hardware comp

But I found a workaround for dual mono in Cubase:

"Procedure:

Make a stereo group and route EVERYTHING to it.

Make two new mono groups. Pan them hard left and right.

Go to your stereo group. Mute it. Go to the sends section. Put in a send to the first mono group in the first slot, and the second in the second slot. Put both the send faders to 0dB and set the sends a prefade. Now deselect the "link panners" button, and switch the sends view to routing view. Now pan the first send hard left, and the second one hard right.

Your stereo signal should now be split to the two mono tracks."


I've done it, tested with the glue demo and immediately bought the glue and will def use that "dual-Mono-setup" from now on.
Wider, fatter and nicer.

Not the biggest difference, but anyway a huge improvement.

Little steps...

(The Glue kicks major ass!!!)

 

[Jaymz]

Wheres the "link panners" button?

Btw personally I couldn't "mute" the stereo track, I had to just pull the fader down.

 

[AboutBlank]

Haha, same problems as I had

Hard in english but I'll try(and I'm @ home now, so no chance to look at C5 atm):

You have the option to choose that C5 will not mute your tracks when you mute the groups.
It's under VST adjustement(program adjustement?).
Fuck, would love to switch languages in Cubase for explaining, some words are missing

Anyway,
Go to your Stereo Master Group and click on quickcontrols, select under send(panning) the first left/right which is in the folder 1. Pan left manually.
Do exactly the same in the second line, but with folder 2 and pan right.

Man this took me 10 minutes. Hope I haven't totally sucked at explaining.
I'm in the studio tomorrow, so I can post a more detailed step by step, if needed.

Greetz
Jannik

 

[Melodeath]

There is some confusion in this thread regarding compression, dual mono, stereo image etc.

A stereo compressor should not lessen your stereo image (if it is then maybe it's bad programming, or whatever). Dual-mono compression will. Without getting into too much detail (and I don't claim to be some compressor guru), when you run a compressor in stereo, it turns down the left and right evenly. Meaning your stereo balance remains the same as it reduces the gain.

Dual-mono mode, however, does technically mess with your stereo image. Whether you hear this as a widening or lessening I imagine depends on the situation. Dual-mono treats the left and right differently. This messes with the balance of the stereo image, as the left and right can be turned down different amount. You're essentially lessening the amplitude difference between the left and right at all times (depending on where you set the thresholds, I suppose), which makes the mix more mono, while shifting the image around. My theory is people hear the stereo shifting, and interpret this as a widening.

 

[botus99]

My theory is people hear the stereo shifting, and interpret this as a widening.

Totally agreed.

Although, a stereo compressor can still reduce the stereo image by turning the differences in the left and right sides the same amount. By doing this, especially at high GR, you will lose the differences between the left and right dB by dB. So yes, it may not reduce the stereo image in a certain sense (as in the way you explained), but by the nature of compression, you will lose dynamics which can only lead to losing dynamics that contribute to the stereo image.

Its a hard concept to verbalize, but the more you play around with compressors, the more you notice things like these. (and I'm still far from the level of understanding of some of the people on this board). But to put it simply, if the left and right are compressed the same amount, thats like putting a mono reverb on a stereo track; essentially making the left and right more of the same.

Both methods are capable of totally professional results, but as usual in the audio production world, its completely subjective and up to the person behind the board to make the best decision to serve the bigger picture. So try out both and make the best choice :Smokedev:

 

[pikachu69]

I see alot of you are using the API 2500.
At the bottom there is a knob labeled LINK. This is a variable dual mono/stereo function. Hard left will give you true dual mono compression. Hard right is stereo compression. The cool thing is as it is variable you can adjust to get the best balance between the two compression styles and retain stereo image and movement.

Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious to most people here but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

 

[Melodeath]

Totally agreed.

Although, a stereo compressor can still reduce the stereo image by turning the differences in the left and right sides the same amount. By doing this, especially at high GR, you will lose the differences between the left and right dB by dB. So yes, it may not reduce the stereo image in a certain sense (as in the way you explained), but by the nature of compression, you will lose dynamics which can only lead to losing dynamics that contribute to the stereo image.

Its a hard concept to verbalize, but the more you play around with compressors, the more you notice things like these. (and I'm still far from the level of understanding of some of the people on this board). But to put it simply, if the left and right are compressed the same amount, thats like putting a mono reverb on a stereo track; essentially making the left and right more of the same.

Both methods are capable of totally professional results, but as usual in the audio production world, its completely subjective and up to the person behind the board to make the best decision to serve the bigger picture. So try out both and make the best choice :Smokedev:

Hmm. I suppose it's possible that just by the nature of reducing the dynamic range in general, things seem less wide, but what exactly are you saying with "you lose the differences between the left and right dB by dB?"

A stereo compressor turns the L and R down by the same amount. You are retaining all differences, simply making the mix as a whole less dynamic.
A stereo compressor will turn the R channel down, even if it doesn't pass the threshold, as long as the L signal has passed the threshold. I think most compressors do this, at least in the hardware world, by summing the L and R to mono in the sidechain of the GR circuit. So how are you losing the differences between the L and R with a stereo comp?

 

[botus99]

what exactly are you saying with "you lose the differences between the left and right dB by dB?"

So how are you losing the differences between the L and R with a stereo comp?

I mean that the even with a stereo comp, the more reduction you get ("dB by dB"), the less dynamics are there to differentiate the right & left therefore making the image SEEM smaller.

When using dual mono, yes it will screw with the stereo image and it will no longer be "true, "pure", or whatever words people want to attach to it. But, dual mono screws with the imaging, SOMETIMES making the image SEEM wider (depending on the material). In using dual mono, its like putting a microscope on what makes the sides different, while a stereo plug is like a microscope on whats the same between the sides.

Again like I said before its all preference and no way is BETTER than the other, its pure perception. They are only 2 different ways to get great sounds out of your MF

 

[Evilcleatus]

Anyone ever tried an FMR RNC on the master bus? Try it in "Super Nice" mode. 2:1, find your attack and release. Add just a touch. It works really well and it's cheap.