Messages in music

[cthulufhtagn]

(Continued from Christianity thread, and completely ripped off my own thread from the Opeth forum )

How do people feel about religious themes in music? If a band (many, many bm bands come to mind) puts out music that contains a strong anti- (or pro-) religious message, does that make you respect them less? More? Are you willing to listen at all?

Personally I don't mind the religious stance of a band...Although I can't say I listen to any Christian bands, that may just be because I haven't come across very many in the genres I enjoy (mostly black/death metal, haha).

 

[Goreripper]

For me it all depends on the way the message is put across. For example, there are some bands with Christian beliefs that discuss Christian themes subtlely, or in the context of the spiritual side of their beliefs, or in the form of theological discussion and argument, even questioning their beliefs. If you listen to the music of bands like Virgin Black or The Eternal, for example, you won't find direct references to their Christian beliefs, but they address Christian spiritual issues in an abstracted way, often in metaphoric or allegoric ways. To me, this allows an audience to explore or understand an artist's beliefs or at least appreciate them without having it shoved down their throat. What I mean by this is, they are telling me about what they believe, and why they believe it, but they aren't forcing their beliefs onto me.

On the other hand, bands like Mortification and Torniquet are obviously preaching Christianity with their music. They use Biblical texts in their songs and they are very clear in their messages. There are also openly Satanic bands, racist bands and socialist bands that are just as preachy with their beliefs as some of the evangelistical Christian bands. My thoughts on this are that you can simply ignore the message if you so choose. The problem with this however is that, if you are ideologically opposed to such beliefs, you can be turned off from the band completely, whether or not the music itself is any good or not. I would also say that you can't condemn a Christian band for preaching Christianity but allow a racist band to openly espouse racist dogma or a Satanic band for praising the devil all the time. If you're going to accept one band doing this type of thing, you have to accept them all.

 

[Kenneth R.]

as explained in the Opeth board NSBM thread...

I have no problem with bands promoting their various religions. we all think different things and its interesting to hear what others have to say. when they go bashing on organizations (like churches) i don't mind so much, because no organization is perfect. however, when they go bashing on pure beliefs held by others, that's not cool with me, regardless of what religion is in question.

(copied from other thread)

+
in response to Goreripper, i agree that in a sense, its more of an issue when the band makes their message "this is what you should think" instead of "this is what we think"

 

[Goreripper]

Agreed. That's what I was trying to get across, in my long-winded fashion.

 

[no country for old wainds]

As far as I'm concerned, every piece of music ever composed has some sort of abstract "message" or "mindset" within it, whether it's being consciously expressed or not. The old "certain sounds have evolved to create certain effects in the mind and mean certain things etcetc" idea.

I like any messages or ideas in politics or philosophy or anything else to come through in the music, not to just be plastered onto it via lyrics or the band's reputation. I tend not to favour music which focuses on current issues because I know that it will soon lose context, and isn't timelessly important. I also favour music which expresses something which connects with me personally, because it's not going to move me to anything but disgust if it expresses something I despise.

I don't care about bands oppressing their views upon others, as I'm not egalitarian and consider the down-your-throat method effective enough (actually, I'm not sure why it bothers people so much). The ideas come first to me rather than the methods of distributing/expressing them, though.

 

[MetalAges]

This is a weird issue with me. Ofcourse being Christian I listen to some Christian artists. On my own label I released the Theocracy album which has done very well, both with Christians and non-Christians. People are appreciating it for what it is, a killer Metal album. Matt (lyrics in Theocracy) doesn't come across as too preachy and his style is more pondering and struggling at times with faith. It's great stuff and very well written.

I personally listen to and LOVE King Diamond's music. I know his beliefs but with King Diamond music he doesn't so much bring that into his lyrical content. On the other hand I choose not to listen to Mercyful Fate because of the lyrical content. I do have "In the Shadows" though and love that. To me that is more like a King Diamond album than anything else.

On the OTHER (third?!) hand I have heard tunes from bands like Dimmu Borgir (mainly the one tune they had a video for, Progeny something)... LOVE that friggin tune. I just can't bring myself to buy that album though with all the blatant 3 foot upside down crosses and such haha. I believe they have the right to express whatever they believe but I just can't bring myself to go out of my way and buy/download the album (as much as I would love to hear the rest of the album!).

 

[Darth Kur]

Goreripper - "If you're going to accept one band doing this type of thing, you have to accept them all."

No I do not have to nor shall I. To quote GoD "...because it's not going to move me to anything but disgust if it expresses something I despise." And that's exactly the reaction x-tian bands give me. Besides the fact that I have NEVER heard an x-tian band that even came close to the quality and ferocity that any other normal and/or anti-x-tian band can accomplish. None of these jesus freaks can seem to muster the aggression required to give their music the sheer girth easily displayed by bands such as Immolation, Morbid Angel, Incantation, ect. Even though I think the actual aspects of "satanism" is just as stupid as x-tianity, being just the opposite side of the same coin, I can deal with much more because it relates to my own anti x-tian feelings. In fact I feel that all organized religions are worthless and should be destroyed but that's an entirely other argument

MetalAges - "I just can't bring myself to go out of my way and buy/download the album (as much as I would love to hear the rest of the album!)."

You are just needlessly depriving yourself of listening enjoyment on that, Mercyful Fate and any other such albums or bands that you deny yourself on account of an illogical sense of guilt inherent in that sad outdated dogmatic system. You only live once so why the hell chose to ignore and deprive yourself of things you would enjoy? And for what, because of a collection of trite and contradictory scribbling's jotted down by a bunch of primitives from an alien desert region thousands of years ago, demanded you to do so?

People need to realize that life is too damn short to piss it away by not indulging in everything that appeals to you to it's fullest. As long as it does not infringe upon another against their will, i.e. murder, rape, robbery, ect. This of coarse is common sense.

 

[Goreripper]

Goreripper - "If you're going to accept one band doing this type of thing, you have to accept them all."

No I do not have to nor shall I. To quote GoD "...because it's not going to move me to anything but disgust if it expresses something I despise." And that's exactly the reaction x-tian bands give me. Besides the fact that I have NEVER heard an x-tian band that even came close to the quality and ferocity that any other normal and/or anti-x-tian band can accomplish. None of these jesus freaks can seem to muster the aggression required to give their music the sheer girth easily displayed by bands such as Immolation, Morbid Angel, Incantation, ect. Even though I think the actual aspects of "satanism" is just as stupid as x-tianity, being just the opposite side of the same coin, I can deal with much more because it relates to my own anti x-tian feelings. In fact I feel that all organized religions are worthless and should be destroyed but that's an entirely other argument

Obviously if you're actually opposed to or disgusted by the message in a band's music I don't expect you to accept it, but the point of my post was that regardless of whether you like or accept the message, no matter if it's Torniquet praising God, Nasum doing something positive about socialism or Acheron hailing Satan, you still need to appreciate the fact that bands have the right to sing about whatever they like. For example, I don't like Arghoslent because their lyrical focus and ideology is opposed to my belief system. That doesn't mean I'm going to suggest they shouldn't express it, but they also shouldn't try to convince me they are right either.

 

[MetalAges]

Well Darth Kur I am in the same opinion as yourself just reversed:

No I do not have to nor shall I. To quote GoD "...because it's not going to move me to anything but disgust if it expresses something I despise."

I just make a choice based on my beliefs, no different than yourself. It's just we differ in our beliefs To each his own my man.

 

[Darth Kur]

Obviously if you're actually opposed to or disgusted by the message in a band's music I don't expect you to accept it, but the point of my post was that regardless of whether you like or accept the message, no matter if it's Torniquet praising God, Nasum doing something positive about socialism or Acheron hailing Satan, you still need to appreciate the fact that bands have the right to sing about whatever they like. For example, I don't like Arghoslent because their lyrical focus and ideology is opposed to my belief system. That doesn't mean I'm going to suggest they shouldn't express it, but they also shouldn't try to convince me they are right either.

Ah, ok. I guess I misinterpreted there a bit. I concur with that then.

 

[Darth Kur]

Well Darth Kur I am in the same opinion as yourself just reversed:


I just make a choice based on my beliefs, no different than yourself. It's just we differ in our beliefs To each his own my man.

To each his own for sure. I was just saying that you seemed to want to listen to other material but were denying yourself, for what I see as illogical reasons. Of coarse I can't tell you how to think or what to believe, although I do try to help people "see the light" . I approach life from a purely scientific and logic based manner. I guess I find it frustrating when I seen people seemingly allowing, what I see as obstacles, get in the way of enjoying life to it's fullest. Oh well, like you said, to each his own.

 

[Kenneth R.]

None of these jesus freaks can seem to muster the aggression required to give their music the sheer girth easily displayed by bands such as Immolation, Morbid Angel, Incantation, ect.

You are just needlessly depriving yourself of listening enjoyment on that, Mercyful Fate and any other such albums ... And for what, because of a collection of trite and contradictory scribbling's jotted down by a bunch of primitives from an alien desert region thousands of years ago, demanded you to do so?

People need to realize that life is too damn short to piss it away by not indulging in everything that appeals to you to it's fullest. As long as it does not infringe upon another against their will, i.e. murder, rape, robbery, ect. This of coarse is common sense.

1. where is it written that all music, or even all metal, must be gauged by "aggression"? i can think of many bands who have a profound metal impact without aggression. its a theme often used by metal, but it is not a NECESSARY theme to employ for music to be deemed metal. therefore, your first paragraph just doesn't work...

2. this will depend on individual's beliefs. your 2nd paragraph in my quote reflects yours. in my opinion, those jotted down words are extremely meaningful even 2000 years later, and to many other people as well. they are not primitive, and in fact were far beyond their time. they do not demand what music i will listen to. i listen to music i like. this is explained above in my last post.

3. common sense according to you. once again, i disagree. in my opinion, the purpose of life is not indulgence in every possible seduction life has to offer. i have no need to appeal in every whim, no desire to buy buy buy and do do do. i live according to what i believe, according to what i want to accomplish. that and no more, and so, for me, life is not too short. it is exactly the time i need and desire.

 

[Pessimism]

^#3 = .

 

[anonymousnick2001]

You are just needlessly depriving yourself of listening enjoyment on that, Mercyful Fate and any other such albums or bands that you deny yourself on account of an illogical sense of guilt inherent in that sad outdated dogmatic system. You only live once so why the hell chose to ignore and deprive yourself of things you would enjoy? And for what, because of a collection of trite and contradictory scribbling's jotted down by a bunch of primitives from an alien desert region thousands of years ago, demanded you to do so?

Your point was apparent from the beginning, so keep the superfluous and unnecessary disrespect to a minimum, please.

My suggestion to Deron is to download the music and see if he likes it enough to overcome the distaste for the lyrical content. If all else fails, toss out the lyric booklet.

 

[MetalAges]

I totally understand the suggestions don't get me wrong. I am SURE I would love it once I listened to it. My thing (which is tied to my beliefs of course) is that...take this for example: (I apply the same logic to music, bear with me)

*I decided I am going to make a new thread called "influence" instead of misdirecting this thread to another topic.*

 

[Darth Kur]

Your point was apparent from the beginning, so keep the superfluous and unnecessary disrespect to a minimum, please.

I was only expressing my heat felt sentiment on the subject. I don't consider that any of the statement was redundant. When I feel very strongly about things I tend to go into great detail.

 

[Sepsis]

I'm with you on the third hand. Progenies of the Great Apocalypse is a killer song, despite the blatantly Satanic lyrics.

Anyway, I'm Christian and I listen to Behemoth, so that ought to tell you my stance on this.

 

[infoterror]

How do people feel about religious themes in music? If a band (many, many bm bands come to mind) puts out music that contains a strong anti- (or pro-) religious message, does that make you respect them less?

Depends on the genre. Clearly it's stupid to put Christian themes in black/death, but to reduce the entirety of black metal to "itz about Satan, stupid!" is also pathetic.

 

[Kenneth R.]

why is it stupid to have christian themes in death metal? i disagree. that's like saying its stupid to have happy blues songs.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Because death metal began and evolved with a value incongruent with Christianity at its core - that death is the only reality.