Religion and Metal

[Blowtus]

Nobody lives in a society where anything is 'the only cool'. To think that nobody gets in to metal because those they associate with are interested in it, is naive and idealistic... I'm pretty sure I made the progression from grunge to metal because a bunch of my classmates were interested in it, and I really doubt I was the only socially insecure little pussy in high school

 

[OldScratch]

Fark, got delusion? Metal is *the only* cool amongst metalhead types.

Shit, you should have seen it in the mid 1980's to really see that statement in glorious action. "Death to false Metal, posers, etc!!" We would abide almost nothing "unmetal!"
It was the ONLY cool indeed! And it all made perfect sense when you were sixteen as well

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

WeAreInFlames said: "Now then, nobody has any problem with that. However, the shit you guys believe is just incredible. No offense, but stem cells have no right to life, premarital sex won't send you to hell, Jesus is not coming back and gay people are decent human beings. I realize I'm generalizing that all Christians are like the US Christian Right. However, the fact that some Christians believe these things should explain why rational atheists bash them."


Firstly, I hate to correct you (you told me that the point of the thread was to explain how people reconciled religion and metal), but one of the points of your thread, as stated by... you, was to explain "your perspective on religion." That's what we're doing.

Firstly, you don't seem to know a whole lot about Christianity. At all. As I think I said in my post, this is a common problem when discussing these two things, as their respective disciples generally hate each other. NOW - I am a Catholic, and MOST CATHOLICS, at least, the more liberal ones, BELIEVE THIS: 1)The use of stem cells in science is perfectly ethical. 2)Premarital sex? Are you kidding? No, most of us really don't believe it will send you to "hell". In fact, we don't actually believe in a physical "hell" - just hell as a state of being: the lack of God's presence. 3)Jesus is coming back? Welllll, kinda. I don't want to get too technical, but in criticizing my religion, with bad information, you force me to do so. This gets into literalist vs. conceptualist (most Christians are conceptualists) interperetations. A few people believe that he will come back physically, but most modern Chritians simply believe that the world will end... as in, "from dust you are made and to dust you shall return," etc. In other words, the world was created and to our creator we will return. Something like that. If you want to criticize ANY religion, PLEASE do it with reliable information. 4)Gay people are, in fact decent human beings, and many Christians are very accepting of gays, as are many churches. You may have heard about recent gay bishops, if you watch the news. Also, metal is stereotypically a very homophobic genre. THE CORE OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH is something that I can accept. Many Christians DISAGREE ON THE WAY IT RELATES TO CURRENT POLITICAL AND SOCIAL ISSUES, which is what you seem to be talking about. IN SHORT, you have a very SIMPLE AND LIMITED understanding of Christianity, and most of the issues you describe ARE POLITICAL AND HAVE FAR MORE TO DO WITH GEOGRAPHY THAN RELIGION. BOSTON COLLEGE IS A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL, AND MOST PEOPLE I KNOW THERE ARE CHRISTIANS, YET FEW BELIEVE IN ANY OF THE THINGS YOU LISTED.
I seem to recall you saying, on a different thread, "People who say bad things about metal obviously have no idea what they're talking about; that's like saying bad things about all music collectively. Things that apply to brutal death metal don't apply to, say, doom metal, glam metal (which isn't really metal), folk metal..." You're doing the same with Christianity.
And yes, "the fact that some Christians believe these things should explain why rational atheists bash them." But, if this is true, wouldn't the fact that SOME metal fans worship Satan and mail Quarthon dead kittens or whatever explain why Christians bash THEM? Aha. If so, the problem on both sides is clearly generalization, over-simplification, and ignorance.

NOW: HOW I RECONCILE METAL WITH CHRISTIAN BELIEFS: I do not IGNORE a bands message, i simply don't agree with it, if it contradicts my personal philosophy. EVEN YOU CAN'T agree with the philosophical message of every band you listen to, they would all contradict each other. Sometimes the "philosophy" of a band is simply "get fucking drunk, fail out of school, fuck a lot, and die fast." And I still listen to them (so do you, probably, as this is a common theme) but I don't say "Gee, that sounds like a great idea!" and start skipping classes to drink.

SO, to summarize. You don't understand Christianity as well as you think you do, the same accusations you apply to Christianity can also apply to metal, and I don't have to accept a band's message in order to listen to it. In fact, I find that philosophy restrictive (you seem to be fond of saying that).

By the way, in what religion were you raised? And why or why not did you decide to reject that philosophy? Or is everyone here an ex-Christian?

OH, and I've also heard you talk about INTELLIGENT DESIGN being taught in classrooms ("can you really just keep your head down?" I think you said). Um... that hasn't been taught in public schools for years. It's great that you want to be a rebel, but there's really nothing for you to ... uh... "raise your head" about. You're definately talking about a small minority of Christians.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Oh, and it also helps that most of the blatantly anti-religious bands I listen to feature unintelligible lyrics.

 

[waif]

Firstly, I hate to correct you (you told me that the point of the thread was to explain how people reconciled religion and metal), but one of the points of your thread, as stated by... you, was to explain "your perspective on religion." That's what we're doing.

Woops...my bad. Forgot.

I did mention that most people criticize based on the Christian Coalition...I would point out that in America religion has become entwined with politics.

Sometimes the "philosophy" of a band is simply "get fucking drunk, fail out of school, fuck a lot, and die fast." And I still listen to them (so do you, probably, as this is a common theme)

No, actually. Motley Crue suck.

SO, to summarize. You don't understand Christianity as well as you think you do, the same accusations you apply to Christianity can also apply to metal, and I don't have to accept a band's message in order to listen to it. In fact, I find that philosophy restrictive (you seem to be fond of saying that).

I was sorta telling you why other people will bash Christianity. Mostly, my problem is with the Christian Coalition types and the holier-than-thou types. I also find the bible to be absurd, and I don't see why anyone who doesn't take it literally would be a Christian; do you have to join the Church to love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, and whatnot? I don't really understand conceptual interpretors...and by the way, gay-bashing, wait-till-marriage stem-cell-lovers are not as rare as you might think.
By the way, BC? You picked somewhere in Massachusetts. Maybe some places in California are more liberal...not much else, though.

By the way, in what religion were you raised? And why or why not did you decide to reject that philosophy? Or is everyone here an ex-Christian?

Jewish, amusingly enough. It's not all about torturing babies, though; it's also an ethnicity.
Why? Because I never actually believed any of it, and I got bored shitless at Ceder. Do you know what it's like to sit around a table full of food and read stories about starvation for an hour?
Also, I always found the Exodus to be a little creepy. If you think about it, it praises divine retribution, genocide, and racism.
Can't speak for the others.

 

[BringMeTheCalm]

A) I'm an Atheist who was raised Catholic. I don't think my love of metal did anything to effect my loss of faith. It just makes more sense to me this way.
B) I don't mind if bands put religious messages in their music. If they can influence something that you truly believe in, then you don't truly believe in it.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

By the way, BC? You picked somewhere in Massachusetts. Maybe some places in California are more liberal...not much else, though.

Why, yes, Massachusetts IS very liberal. THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT, that this stuff has more to do with GEOGRAPHY and POLITICS than it does with religion.

Mostly, my problem is with the Christian Coalition types and the holier-than-thou types.

So is mine... virtually every Christian I know hates both of those things.

I also find the bible to be absurd, and I don't see why anyone who doesn't take it literally would be a Christian.

Well, if you take it literally, OF COURSE IT SOUNDS ABSURD. The vast majority of religious people have contextualist interpretations of their respective holy books. And it certainly makes sense, considering that much of the Bible consists of old Jewish oral records and PARABLES. Should people give up Christianity because of evolution theory? Of course not. Contextualists simply say that the story of Adam and Eve is a parable, containing precious religious truths. Literalists, on the other hand, must either deny their religion or science.

But, again, to answer the original question, since this argument seems to have fizzled out.

...how one can reconcile blatantly anti-Christian music with religious beliefs. I personally think that if your beliefs force you to ignore a band's message, then you're defeating the purpose of the music.

HOW I RECONCILE METAL WITH CHRISTIAN BELIEFS: I do not IGNORE a bands message, i simply don't agree with it, if it contradicts my personal philosophy. EVEN YOU CAN'T agree with the philosophical message of every band you listen to, they would all contradict each other. Sometimes the "philosophy" of a band is simply "get fucking drunk, fail out of school, fuck a lot, and die fast." And I still listen to them (so do you, probably, as this is a common theme) but I don't say "Gee, that sounds like a great idea!" and start skipping classes to drink.

No, actually. Motley Crue suck.

Yeah... they do... but I'm sure you still listen to them (or SOME band some band with a message you don't agree with). And if you don't, maybe you should try to experience more of the musical landscape.

 

[waif]

... virtually every Christian I know hates both of those things.

Right...well, if you notice I wasn't saying you guys are all like that, I'm just saying that the Jesus freaks down South give you all a bad rap.

Well, if you take it literally, OF COURSE IT SOUNDS ABSURD.

And if you don't take it literally, then why even have it? Jesus' message was love and peace. Do you have to read the bible in order to turn the other cheek? So...what does Christianity give you that you can't get elsewhere, unless you take a literal interpretation of the bible? *
*Please note that this is a serious question, not a rhetorical one. I actually want to know.

Literalists, on the other hand, must either deny their religion or science.

I think we can agree that literalists are off their rocker.

HOW I RECONCILE METAL WITH CHRISTIAN BELIEFS: I do not IGNORE a bands message, i simply don't agree with it, if it contradicts my personal philosophy. EVEN YOU CAN'T agree with the philosophical message of every band you listen to, they would all contradict each other. Sometimes the "philosophy" of a band is simply "get fucking drunk, fail out of school, fuck a lot, and die fast." And I still listen to them (so do you, probably, as this is a common theme) but I don't say "Gee, that sounds like a great idea!" and start skipping classes to drink.

I have a strange sense we've been over this. Anyhow, not every band has a message; some just use lyrics that examine the nature of reality, emotion, humanity, or whatever. I have issues listening to a band I find offensive, though. It's just that not much offends me.

I'm sure you still listen to them

Yeah, you got me. But only the first 2 albums.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Jesus freaks down South give you all a bad rap.

Sadly, yes. Other victims of this include America in general, fried foods, and racing.

I think we can agree that literalists are off their rocker.

Well, I would rather phrase it in a slightly less offensive way, but... yes.

If you don't take it literally, then why even have it? Jesus' message was love and peace. Do you have to read the bible in order to turn the other cheek?

No. Of course not. Unfortunately, many modern priests have a propensity for reducing the Christian faith to "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, turn the other cheek." Now, these are all good things, and everyone should contribute something to each of them. But that's not what Christianity is REALLY about, that's just what BEING A DECENT HUMAN BEING is about. I don't think anyone's saying you can't be a decent human being, if you aren't Christian (probably even the aforementioned Southern Fried Jesus Freaks).

If you don't take it literally, then why even have it? So...what does Christianity give you that you can't get elsewhere, unless you take a literal interpretation of the bible?

First of all, one must BELIEVE in Christianity. If you don't then you should never ask what you can get out of it. The answer, without belief, is nothing. I use Christianity as a metaphysical truth in the search that defines life, for a higher truth. For the HIGHEST truth. As I've said, I think there ARE other tools one may use, other religions or philosophies.
Now, the Bible, as interpreted by a contextualist, still survives with ALL intended MEANING intact. If the Bible had no meaning to anyone, it would just be a history lesson... with a lot of made up shit. So, a bad history lesson. But there is MEANING to be found (referred to as RELIGIOUS TRUTHS) in every part of the Bible, whether factual, kinda factual, or not factual at all, in any way. That being said, we still believe SOME of the the Bible says LITERALLY, I mean we still believe in Jesus.
Hope that helped.

Yeah, you got me. But only the first 2 albums.

Oh, no Theater of Pain, Girls Girls Girls or Doctor Feelgood for you .

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

If the highest truth is that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... then shit, what a pathetic universe this is.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Actually, the PHILOSOPHER forum says "intelligent and mature discussions only".
Obviously you've chosen to ignore the intellectual debate raging around you in favor of mindlessly bashing Christianity... if you hadn't noticed, the rest of us outgrew that phase earlier, and are now debating more relevant and mature things.

I clearly stated that Christianity was not the only path to the higher truth, and therefore the higher truth is not purely Christian philosophy. Read the post more carefully, dumbass.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Jesus freaks down South give you all a bad rap.

Sadly, yes. Other victims of this include America in general, fried foods, and racing.

I think we can agree that literalists are off their rocker.

Well, I would rather phrase it in a slightly less offensive way, but... yes.

Originally Posted by WeAreInFlames View Post
If you don't take it literally, then why even have it? Jesus' message was love and peace. Do you have to read the bible in order to turn the other cheek?

No. Of course not. Unfortunately, many modern priests have a propensity for reducing the Christian faith to "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, turn the other cheek." Now, these are all good things, and everyone should contribute something to each of them. But that's not what Christianity is REALLY about, that's just what BEING A DECENT HUMAN BEING is about. I don't think anyone's saying you can't be a decent human being, if you aren't Christian (probably even the aforementioned Southern Fried Jesus Freaks).

If you don't take it literally, then why even have it? So...what does Christianity give you that you can't get elsewhere, unless you take a literal interpretation of the bible?

First of all, one must BELIEVE in Christianity. If you don't then you should never ask what you can get out of it. The answer, without belief, is nothing. I use Christianity as a metaphysical truth in the search that defines life, for a higher truth. For the HIGHEST truth. As I've said, I think there ARE other tools one may use, other religions or philosophies.
Now, the Bible, as interpreted by a contextualist, still survives with ALL intended MEANING intact. If the Bible had no meaning to anyone, it would just be a history lesson... with a lot of made up shit. So, a bad history lesson. But there is MEANING to be found (referred to as RELIGIOUS TRUTHS) in every part of the Bible, whether factual, kinda factual, or not factual at all, in any way. That being said, we still believe SOME of the the Bible says LITERALLY, I mean we still believe in Jesus.
Hope that helped.

Yeah, you got me. But only the first 2 albums.

Oh, no Theater of Pain, Girls Girls Girls or Doctor Feelgood for you .

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

That which can be claimed on the basis of no evidence can be dismissed just as easily.

 

[waif]

Sadly, yes. Other victims of this include America in general, fried foods, and racing.

Racing bores me. WHO will be first to drive around a circular track a million times with crashing?

First of all, one must BELIEVE in Christianity. If you don't then you should never ask what you can get out of it.

And if you believe in it, you don't need to ask what you can get out of it...so when can you ask what you can get out of it?

The answer, without belief, is nothing. I use Christianity as a metaphysical truth in the search that defines life, for a higher truth. For the HIGHEST truth. As I've said, I think there ARE other tools one may use, other religions or philosophies.
Now, the Bible, as interpreted by a contextualist, still survives with ALL intended MEANING intact. If the Bible had no meaning to anyone, it would just be a history lesson... with a lot of made up shit. So, a bad history lesson. But there is MEANING to be found (referred to as RELIGIOUS TRUTHS) in every part of the Bible, whether factual, kinda factual, or not factual at all, in any way. That being said, we still believe SOME of the the Bible says LITERALLY, I mean we still believe in Jesus.
Hope that helped.

All right, that's legitimate. I respect that. I don't believe in anything the bible says literally, but there's a whole lot of bullshit history that gets passed around, so w/e.

Oh, no Theater of Pain, Girls Girls Girls or Doctor Feelgood for you .

I hate Theater of Pain. Wild Side, Girls, Girls, Girls, SOS, and Rattlesnake Shake are fun. The rest sucks. One odd exception; Don't Go Away Mad would be my candidate for cheesiest ballad ever, but I love it...

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

And if you believe in it, you don't need to ask what you can get out of it...so when can you ask what you can get out of it?

If you believe, then you know - it's the reason you chose to believe. There's no way to mathematically prove that God exists, and if he does, that Christianity is the best (or even a good) way to relate to God. Most Christians I know believe for other reasons.

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

In that case, can you defend your Christianity as a valid philosophical position?

 

[OldScratch]

Obviously you've chosen to ignore the intellectual debate raging around you

That is a matter of opinion. Either way, it seems thou doth protest far too much. Issuing sweeping, undeveloped generalities about the great value of being a "decent person" and finding the "highest truth" in Christianity, etc. is bound to make many here cringe from a philosophical standpoint alone! St. Augustine you are not...so lighten up a bit.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

In that case, can you defend your Christianity as a valid philosophical position?

I've just spent about 3 pages doing that.

...undeveloped generalities about the great value of being a "decent person" and finding the "highest truth" in Christianity, etc. is bound to make many here cringe from a philosophical standpoint alone! St. Augustine you are not...so lighten up a bit.

Point taken...
Now, if you want me to go deeper into those admittedly undeveloped generalities, I'd be happy to... I've trying to hold back and stay on topic, but I have a lot more to say.

 

[Volve]

I am raised in a more or less non-religious family. Only church on christmas eve and the nationalday. I also had choire practice in the church. I am baptised and has been through communion. Mostly because everyone else did. It was a very small community.

Now I'm ateist. I believe in science, and live in a city. Since I don't believe there is a God, discussing the bible like there was one, is not interesting. Discussing the bible as a result of the time and culture it was a part of, I can do.

When it comes to music, the lyrics is often a part of the hole picture. If the lyrics is to religious I will skip the music. Otherwise is's ok.

 

[Volve]

I think it makes most sense to study what people use as the philosophy with which they organize their lives. Religion, philosophy, politics, science, drugs, sex... anything can be a religion and have the same eventual effect.

Religion is defined by believing in something powerfull outside yourself.
What about a term like: "system of believe" or something?

In the interwievs I have seen many bands try to reduce the "satanist" term to something like "evil" or something. I'm not sure they really consider themselves satanists. People consists of good and bad. Bad sometimes get to much attention from us.

I think the "satanist" term has completely grown out of proportion. Have you seen the documentary on Gaahl from his place? If you remove the music and the most shocking acts or words, it's really a normal house in rural Western part of Norway, and it needs some paint. But of couse he has to stand by his actions(torture). In the end I don't know what I can take seriously of the things he says in that interview, and I don't understand his english:Smug: