Silver Incubus
Dead Hands Justin
I've never seen that line. Where exactly is it drawn? I listen to music in my real life, I play music in my real life. Isn't art a reflection of life?
Religion and Metal
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I've never seen that line. Where exactly is it drawn? I listen to music in my real life, I play music in my real life. Isn't art a reflection of life?
BlackMetalWhiteGuy
Manly Man!
Yes, art is a reflection of life, and I'm certainly against Intelligent Design, especially if it's being taught in classrooms, but if I want to make a difference, I'll write an article or something that people might actually take seriously. How many people do you know who would honestly give a shit a some death metal band recorded "fuck Intelligent Design, GRRRRRRRR!!!"?
How about death metal fans?
Deny it all you want, but the music you listen to will have at least some limited effect on your opinions.
BlackMetalWhiteGuy
Manly Man!
I would imagine that most death metal fans are already opposed to the idea of Intelligent Design. However, they are a minority population and they certainly do not earn their fare share of respect from the politicians who set these laws in the first place.
The Poona of Peshwa
Blood Glutton
I totally agree with you, except that I don't think that death metal fans deserve any recognition or consideration whatsoever as an interest group. I think that a band with a lyrical focus on natural history would be amazing in the right hands. The closest I've heard was the progrock band Frameshift's Unweaving the Rainbow, which as you could probably tell by the title, was based on the work of Richard Dawkins.
BlackMetalWhiteGuy
Manly Man!
I don't think so either, which was sort of my point. Sorry if I wasn't explaining myself clearly.
I'll have to check them out, thanks.
EDIT: I looked up their Encyclopædia Metallum profile, but I can't find any blogs hosting the album. I have to say though, I'm a bit disappointed to see that James LaBrie does the vocals, because I can't stand his young teenager voice. I even played some Dream Theater for my ex-girlfriend and she said he sounds like a boy band member.
Opethian666
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I've made some semi-religious lyrics before, although rather philosophical than religious, about the illusion of free will and its effect on this world. Face it, we are programmed to think we have free will and a whole lot of emotions we experience can only have meaning if free will were to exist. If more people realised that an illusion of free will is just a necessary evolutionary adaptation to have a functioning higher consciousness, and many harmful - when not rationally considered - emotions are tied to this illusion of free will, the world would be a much better place. For example, pride, guilt, vengeance and the mentality of most people in the world that there is absolute "good" and "evil", and that you distinguish yourself to be good or evil by your "free will choices", and "be the better man/woman" etc... are all things that are useless when you can instead rationally consider the situations that cause you to have these emotions and perceptions, and thus act on them in a much more specific and thought-through way. Also, in one blow, if people realise that there is no free will, they will realise the absurdity of religion, since most religions assume that free will is something that exists in reality, not just as an illusion, and allows their followers to do good or evil, for example to prevail over sin or to sin, and ultimately to go to heaven or hell by your "free will choices".
Rob "Darken" Fudaldi, in a March 2006 Decibel Magazine interview:
It is Judeo-Christian or atheist secular liberal people who promote commercialized mass consumer culture, crowding out the fine arts and ruining metal music in particular, in the process.
It is Judeo-Christian or atheist secular liberal people who promote commercialized mass consumer culture, crowding out the fine arts and ruining metal music in particular, in the process.
zoidberg
Mallcore Kid
The Poona of Peshwa
Blood Glutton
Why would it be rational to punish criminals if we accept they are blindly programmed machines? I see what you're saying though.
I'm what you call a compatibilist. I think something like free will can exist in a deterministic system. Free will is like the sketch of the two tables at different angles which look to be different sizes, but which are not. It simply could not look any other way.
Einstein said "But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair."
Also, deterministic arguments such as those by d'Holbach were preceded by centuries by the the Protestant doctrine of predestination. Abolition of free will and religiosity aren't entirely incompatible.
Opethian666
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The Poona of Peshwa said:
This is exactly what I think is wrong about the current society. Most people look at the punishment of criminals, like something they "deserve because of their actions". This is just wrong, criminals should be put in jail because they are a threat to society, and solely for that reason, not because they are "evil", not because they "chose to take the wrong actions", but simply to make the society a safer and more pleasant place to be in. In a perfect world, every criminal would be analysed, the source of what makes him/her a threat to society would be found, and the criminal would undergo some kind of specific program that would make him/her suitable for society. Of course, this is not possible in the real world because it takes money, time, and because humans are such complex organisms and many causes of for example psychopaths are genetic, and the possibility of reforming certain criminals just isn't there technologically. However, the mindset of most people towards criminals is just hypocritical, narrow-minded, and shows pride of themselves, of just how much better they are because they "chose to take the right actions". This is simply ignorance, and a result of the fact that most people don't realise that free will is an illusion.
Maybe your definition of free will differs from mine, could you define it less vaguely perhaps, then we might discuss it more clearly.
Yes, I realise that, but for the most influential religions today, they are very compatible.
Opethian666
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Perhaps I can interest you in a short summary of my reasoning as to why free will cannot exist in a naturalistic world.
In a naturalistic reality, all we are made of, are particles of matter (and energy, but they are just 2 different forms of the same thing). Since matter is determined to a degree (Heisenberg uncertainty of course makes complete determination impossible), it is not possible for 2 individuals with the exact same body structure (same memory, wounds, everything) in the exact same environment and thus receiving the exact same input, to take 2 different actions, besides differences caused by Heisenberg uncertainty (I used 2 identical individuals in the exact same situation that can perform different actions to describe 1 individual that has a "free will choice"). However, free will implies some kind of entity, a mind that has a "free choice", but this implies intelligence to make that choice, and since Heisenberg uncertainty is valid for all matter, this would include rocks and rivers. The way we humans define free will does not apply to rocks and rivers, so any phenomenon that is claimed to be the cause of free will as defined before has to be only applicable to organisms that are claimed to be able to make "free will decisions", which are usually only animals which show a degree of conscious intelligence like humans, other apes, cats and dogs, etc... This means that the only phenomenon that can cause indetermined actions, and thus "choice" (Heisenberg uncertainty), cannot be a cause of free will as we define it, because this implies an intelligent choice. Hence, free will cannot exist in a naturalistic reality.
In a naturalistic reality, all we are made of, are particles of matter (and energy, but they are just 2 different forms of the same thing). Since matter is determined to a degree (Heisenberg uncertainty of course makes complete determination impossible), it is not possible for 2 individuals with the exact same body structure (same memory, wounds, everything) in the exact same environment and thus receiving the exact same input, to take 2 different actions, besides differences caused by Heisenberg uncertainty (I used 2 identical individuals in the exact same situation that can perform different actions to describe 1 individual that has a "free will choice"). However, free will implies some kind of entity, a mind that has a "free choice", but this implies intelligence to make that choice, and since Heisenberg uncertainty is valid for all matter, this would include rocks and rivers. The way we humans define free will does not apply to rocks and rivers, so any phenomenon that is claimed to be the cause of free will as defined before has to be only applicable to organisms that are claimed to be able to make "free will decisions", which are usually only animals which show a degree of conscious intelligence like humans, other apes, cats and dogs, etc... This means that the only phenomenon that can cause indetermined actions, and thus "choice" (Heisenberg uncertainty), cannot be a cause of free will as we define it, because this implies an intelligent choice. Hence, free will cannot exist in a naturalistic reality.
The Poona of Peshwa
Blood Glutton
Well duh, I know all about determinism. Compatibilism is basically saying that the illusion of free will is no different than if we actually had free will. If someone throws a baseball at a human, she can choose to jump out of the way, or she can take it for the team and go to first base. A frog or even a very smart mammal like a dog or dolphin couldn't do the same. I know the mind is an emergent property, I'm no dualist. But I think that we have free will in all the ways that matter, even if outcomes are predetermined.
That being said, I agree with you. My question about criminals was more of a rhetorical nature. Your claim was that we'd be better off as a species if everyone realised that they had no soul and no free will. I suppose what I was asking was if you think people could accept removing personal responsibility from child-killers.
That being said, I agree with you. My question about criminals was more of a rhetorical nature. Your claim was that we'd be better off as a species if everyone realised that they had no soul and no free will. I suppose what I was asking was if you think people could accept removing personal responsibility from child-killers.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
Why couldn't a dog or dolphin do the same? Just like us, they've automatic reactions. Ours are simply so complex they give the illusion of in-the-moment choice, whilst truly they are entirely psychologically predetermined.
But it doesn't matter. The predetermination is outside our scope of reason and logic, it is pre-reason and pre-logic; it has no implication except in the nature of the thoughts we have, beyond that it is meaningless. It would have no positive impact to consider it whilst making any decision or system of thought; to consider it would be a operating outside of the bounds of reason, a void which has no impact upon or connection to human reality.
The Poona of Peshwa
Blood Glutton
WeAreTheLastMen
Metacom
Personally, I have love both. the people who bash them don't understand them. Recently, there have been several anti-philosophical, anti-intellectual, and anti-religious trends emerging in American society (yes, the three are related, guys). Metal seems to particularly reflect the latter. I'm Catholic, and although I have yet to FULLY accept ALL of the churches teachings, I do consider myself a Christian. And here's how I reconcile this with my love of metal... are you ready?
It's fucking fun to listen to!
OK? That's it, thats the secret. Now, a few things. First, the word "conformity" has been thrown around when describing religion. Listen - we are all conformists. We must be, in order to survive! That's what society is, conformity. Do you go to school? Have a job? Conformist. You're conforming to the metal movement by posting on/ reading this forum (and listening to metal). Here's the bottom line: I feel that my life must have some meaning. Some purpose, and religion offers that to me. It offers that to a lot of people. If you choose to gain a sense of meaning from some other source, I believe that's completely possible, and I hope you find it - search, and you will. But please, for those of us who choose to do this by accepting a certain religion or philosophy, don't rail against the church or mosque or temple from which we draw it.
Thank you.
Oh, One more thing... I won't get into the specifics (this post is already too fucking long) but people have been saying that religion has a lot to answer for (it also has a lot of answers). Just consider this - to what degree is religion simply a scapegoat for the actions of greedy, corrupt individuals? If the people in question were operating outside the true message of their respective religion, how can you blame the religion itself? Unfortunately, religion can be used as an extremely potent rhetorical tool... and sometimes it is, and sometimes to horrible ends.
By the way, kudos to WeAreInFlames to starting this thing up. Please reply to my comment - you seem to have a lot of good ideas, and all your logos rule.
out.
It's fucking fun to listen to!
OK? That's it, thats the secret. Now, a few things. First, the word "conformity" has been thrown around when describing religion. Listen - we are all conformists. We must be, in order to survive! That's what society is, conformity. Do you go to school? Have a job? Conformist. You're conforming to the metal movement by posting on/ reading this forum (and listening to metal). Here's the bottom line: I feel that my life must have some meaning. Some purpose, and religion offers that to me. It offers that to a lot of people. If you choose to gain a sense of meaning from some other source, I believe that's completely possible, and I hope you find it - search, and you will. But please, for those of us who choose to do this by accepting a certain religion or philosophy, don't rail against the church or mosque or temple from which we draw it.
Thank you.
Oh, One more thing... I won't get into the specifics (this post is already too fucking long) but people have been saying that religion has a lot to answer for (it also has a lot of answers). Just consider this - to what degree is religion simply a scapegoat for the actions of greedy, corrupt individuals? If the people in question were operating outside the true message of their respective religion, how can you blame the religion itself? Unfortunately, religion can be used as an extremely potent rhetorical tool... and sometimes it is, and sometimes to horrible ends.
By the way, kudos to WeAreInFlames to starting this thing up. Please reply to my comment - you seem to have a lot of good ideas, and all your logos rule.
out.
WeAreTheLastMen
Metacom
Personally, I have love both. the people who bash them don't understand them. Recently, there have been several anti-philosophical, anti-intellectual, and anti-religious trends emerging in American society (yes, the three are related, guys). Metal seems to particularly reflect the latter. I'm Catholic, and although I have yet to FULLY accept ALL of the churches teachings, I do consider myself a Christian. And here's how I reconcile this with my love of metal... are you ready?
It's fucking fun to listen to!
OK? That's it, thats the secret. Now, a few things. First, the word "conformity" has been thrown around when describing religion. Listen - we are all conformists. We must be, in order to survive! That's what society is, conformity. Do you go to school? Have a job? Conformist. You're conforming to the metal movement by posting on/ reading this forum (and listening to metal). Here's the bottom line: I feel that my life must have some meaning. Some purpose, and religion offers that to me. It offers that to a lot of people. If you choose to gain a sense of meaning from some other source, I believe that's completely possible, and I hope you find it - search, and you will. But please, for those of us who choose to do this by accepting a certain religion or philosophy, don't rail against the church or mosque or temple from which we draw it.
Thank you.
Oh, One more thing... I won't get into the specifics (this post is already too fucking long) but people have been saying that religion has a lot to answer for (it also has a lot of answers). Just consider this - to what degree is religion simply a scapegoat for the actions of greedy, corrupt individuals? If the people in question were operating outside the true message of their respective religion, how can you blame the religion itself? Unfortunately, religion can be used as an extremely potent rhetorical tool... and sometimes it is, and sometimes to horrible ends.
By the way, kudos to WeAreInFlames to starting this thing up. Please reply to my comment - you seem to have a lot of good ideas, and all your logos rule.
out.
It's fucking fun to listen to!
OK? That's it, thats the secret. Now, a few things. First, the word "conformity" has been thrown around when describing religion. Listen - we are all conformists. We must be, in order to survive! That's what society is, conformity. Do you go to school? Have a job? Conformist. You're conforming to the metal movement by posting on/ reading this forum (and listening to metal). Here's the bottom line: I feel that my life must have some meaning. Some purpose, and religion offers that to me. It offers that to a lot of people. If you choose to gain a sense of meaning from some other source, I believe that's completely possible, and I hope you find it - search, and you will. But please, for those of us who choose to do this by accepting a certain religion or philosophy, don't rail against the church or mosque or temple from which we draw it.
Thank you.
Oh, One more thing... I won't get into the specifics (this post is already too fucking long) but people have been saying that religion has a lot to answer for (it also has a lot of answers). Just consider this - to what degree is religion simply a scapegoat for the actions of greedy, corrupt individuals? If the people in question were operating outside the true message of their respective religion, how can you blame the religion itself? Unfortunately, religion can be used as an extremely potent rhetorical tool... and sometimes it is, and sometimes to horrible ends.
By the way, kudos to WeAreInFlames to starting this thing up. Please reply to my comment - you seem to have a lot of good ideas, and all your logos rule.
out.
e
Uh...sure.
At some point you have to define conformity. Because if we say that it simply means to do what other people do, than eating, breathing, sleeping, etc, is conformist. If it means simply doing what other people do because they're doing it, then you claim it includes not killing people, going to school, However, I think that the reason people do those things is not because everyone else does it, but because of the consequences of not doing it, which would be death and life in poverty, respectively. So, operating from that definition of conformity, I ask you, is listening to metal conformist? Why do you listen to it?
Reasons that would be conformist:
Because all the cool people listen to metal
Because other people told me I should
etc
Non-conformist:
because I like the music/message/atmosphere/culture
Approximately 100% of metalheads are in it for nonconformist reasons, seeing as metal has never been "cool."
Now then, nobody has any problem with that. However, the shit you guys believe is just incredible. No offense, but stem cells have no right to life, premarital sex won't send you to hell, Jesus is not coming back and gay people are decent human beings. I realize I'm generalizing that all Christians are like the US Christian Right. However, the fact that some Christians believe these things should explain why rational atheists bash them.
However, the point of this thread (can't really remember what it was) was not to bash Christians, so much as (If I remember correctly) to question how one can reconcile blatantly anti-Christian music with religious beliefs. I personally think that if your beliefs force you to ignore a band's message, then you're defeating the purpose of the music. On the other hand, it's hard to reconcile Slayer's Altar of Sacrifice and Sunday Mass... so, if we could talk about that?
Fark, got delusion?
Metal is *the only* cool amongst metalhead types.WeAreTheLastMen said:
Asking people not to rail against things they believe are damaging for them self / their society seems rather stupid to me. I think you would do better to focus your effort on trying to convince people it is not damaging, or at least no more so than any other belief...
Erm...what? My point was that no one ever gets into metal because other people think it be cool. Once they get in, it becomes the "only cool". But its not something you get into because everyone else listens too it. Maybe one person introduces you, but no one lives in a society where all the cool kids listen to metal. So...your point would be?
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