Religion and Metal

[Seditious]

even God's clergy loves them some little boys.

really? do they? in every country? for all the centuries the clergy have been around?

or was it just a situation that arose because people in high positions of authority were trying to defend the church from getting a bad name for this shit (or defending the pedos themselves) essentially gave sanctuary to pedos who had become priests... you really think there's something connected in being a priest and becoming a pedo instead of being a pedo and capitalizing on a localized (America, 20th Century) opportunity in the priesthood?---so where did all these cases occur?---show me some percentages.

there's enough to ridicule about religion without this straw man bullshit.

 

[belialsprophet]

Well back in the old Roman days a love between a man and a boy was more valued than a love between a man and a woman. Seeing as most of Rome is catholic, then this might have had something to do with the thought of preists being child molestors.

 

[Έρεβος]

I could say the same thing about someone who doesn't believe in God, i.e. they don't believe because they don't want to be held accountable for their actions, therefore their unbelief is simply a crutch for their weak morality.

Not believing in God puts all accountability on the individual. Following a code of conduct set down by others leaves them accountable, not you. Creating your own code is the greatest possible accountability.

 

[JColtrane]

To WeAreInFlames: Your position is influenced by Freud and post-modernism, whether you realize it or not. You might think you are a "free-thinker," but those ideas wouldn't be floating around for you to latch on to if it weren't for those two schools of thought. Basically you deconstruct every positive construction (such as religion) by claiming that everything is an unconscious power play by the individual, and you apply this to every individual who has such a positive construction; this causes a gross over-generalization that really doesn't interact with any ideas, because it has already falsely deconstructed the ideas into something else. Part of being able to think critically is to have the ability to recognize where your ideas come from.

To Erebos: I said that it was a BAD argument.

To Seditious: See above for why the bad argument I made is very similar to the bad argument made against religion. And of course, it's not very interesting to listen to someone who hasn't thought through their position. I wasn't claiming that.

 

[waif]

really? do they? in every country? for all the centuries the clergy have been around?

or was it just a situation that arose because people in high positions of authority were trying to defend the church from getting a bad name for this shit (or defending the pedos themselves) essentially gave sanctuary to pedos who had become priests... you really think there's something connected in being a priest and becoming a pedo instead of being a pedo and capitalizing on a localized (America, 20th Century) opportunity in the priesthood?---so where did all these cases occur?---show me some percentages.

there's enough to ridicule about religion without this straw man bullshit.

Dude...chill out just joking around. But seriously, abuse of power by the priesthood has a long history.

To WeAreInFlames: Your position is influenced by Freud and post-modernism, whether you realize it or not. You might think you are a "free-thinker," but those ideas wouldn't be floating around for you to latch on to if it weren't for those two schools of thought. Basically you deconstruct every positive construction (such as religion) by claiming that everything is an unconscious power play by the individual, and you apply this to every individual who has such a positive construction; this causes a gross over-generalization that really doesn't interact with any ideas, because it has already falsely deconstructed the ideas into something else. Part of being able to think critically is to have the ability to recognize where your ideas come from.

I understand that my ideas come from all over, obviously. My problem with religion is twofold: 1, self-censorship; sacrificing your own freedoms for intangible gains. Still, I understand that this may make some people feel better, and I believe everybody should be free to waste their life in whichever way makes them happiest. My main problem is imposing beliefs on others, which isn't restricted entirely to religion, but religion is the main source of such oppression. Anyone who tries to make someone else think something they don't want to think is automatically a bastard, in my book. I don't really care why someone believes in God, although it is interesting how they rationalize it.

 

[Seditious]

Well back in the old Roman days a love between a man and a boy was more valued than a love between a man and a woman. Seeing as most of Rome is catholic, then this might have had something to do with the thought of preists being child molestors.

then, again, I ask, how many cases occurred in the USA, and how many occurred anywhere else?

 

[Seditious]

Dude...chill out just joking around. But seriously, abuse of power by the priesthood has a long history.

lol, don't worry about me, I'm always chilled out, whether or not my words are.

If anyone does have the factual information, I'd be interested to see it.

My main problem is imposing beliefs on others, which isn't restricted entirely to religion, but religion is the main source of such oppression. Anyone who tries to make someone else think something they don't want to think is automatically a bastard, in my book. I don't really care why someone believes in God, although it is interesting how they rationalize it.

unfortunately, the same thing is found in economics, politics, justice, etc., not just religion. people ultimately end up pushing all their socially relevant ideals on other people when enough others agree with them. (the only reason I'd single religion out from all the others is because it's utterly absurd and it's one problem any sophisticated society should be fortunate to be free of, I mean can you imagine being in a state where it was illegal to not participate in the rain dance during a drought? lol).

 

[waif]

unfortunately, the same thing is found in economics, politics, justice, etc., not just religion. people ultimately end up pushing all their socially relevant ideals on other people when enough others agree with them. (the only reason I'd single religion out from all the others is because it's utterly absurd and it's one problem any sophisticated society should be fortunate to be free of, I mean can you imagine being in a state where it was illegal to not participate in the rain dance during a drought? lol).

Well, aside from Capitalism Versus Communism, people don't really try to force their ideas on others. Certainly not violently; the Christianization of Scandinavia, the Crusades, forced conversions of Native Americans, 2000 years of anti-Semitism, and so on - religion wins in terms of conflict. People will try to convince you to vote Republican, but so far no one will kill you. Although keep in mind that if there's another terrorist attack against the US the names of all those who voted against Bush will be read aloud.
Basically, people are far more aggressive in promoting their religious beliefs than others.

What you said about justice is true, but frankly a unified code of law is the basis of civilization.

 

[Nile577]

Anything hinting towards an awareness of beings as other than nothing-but-commodity might be called authentically 'religious.' At their best, black and death metal can be authentically religious.

Where black metal lapses into revivalism (enslaved, bathory, some burzum etc) it functions similarly to surrealism, artificially preserving 'nuggets' of once-everyday things, “values” and people in a distorted capsule. In the instance of metal, this distortion is found both literally in the guitar tone and destructively in its false anachronistic sensibilities. This is the phenomenon of 'museum-metal,' amusingly beloved of pagan-avatar-sporting metal-scene masses, and modern day Vikings alike.

Revivalist black metal is, I have argued recently, Judaic in essence in that it maps history to a messianic narrative-mythology*. Only in the coming of the messiah, a source of universal “truths” and understanding, can history be understood from the perspective of the preserved ‘nugget.’ Only by a messianic ordering, a messianic remembering can we, as Blake put it, “see a world in a grain of sand.” Cultural idealism appeals for validation towards the court of universal “truth,” whereby it can be elected as most ‘valid.'

* This raises the immense question of "authentic" religion as against(?) teleological narratives in which all beings are perhaps commodified as being-towards-a-culmination. It may even be that theistic religions are no longer, if they ever were, authentically religious.

 

[waif]

Anything hinting towards an awareness of beings as other than nothing-but-commodity might be called authentically 'religious.' At its best, black and death metal can be authentically religious.

Where black metal lapses into revivalism (enslaved, bathory, some burzum etc) it functions similarly to surrealism, artificially preserving 'nuggets' of once-everyday things, “values” and people in a distorted capsule. In the instance of metal, this distortion is found both literally in the guitar tone and destructively in its false anachronistic sensibilities. This is the phenomenon of 'museum-metal,' amusingly beloved of pagan-avatar-sporting metal-scene masses, and modern day Vikings alike.

Revivalist black metal is, I have argued recently, Judaic in essence in that it maps history to a messianic narrative-mythology*. Only in the coming of the messiah, the superman, a source of universal “truths” and understanding can history be understood from the perspective of the preserved ‘nugget.’ Only by a messianic ordering, a messianic remembering can we, as Blake put it, “see a world in a grain of sand.” Cultural idealism appeals for validation towards the court of universal “truth,” whereby it can be elected as most ‘valid;’ which I guess leaves revivalist art one half of a dialectic arch, forever limply thrashing for supportive validation.

* This raises the immense question of "authentic" religion as against(?) teleological narratives in which all beings are perhaps commodified as being-towards-a-culmination. It may even be that theistic religions are not authentically religious.

Uh...yeah. Don't completely understand what you're saying, but I think you win the arguement.

 

[OldScratch]

Revivalist black metal is, I have argued recently, Judaic in essence in that it maps history to a messianic narrative-mythology*. Only in the coming of the messiah, a source of universal “truths” and understanding, can history be understood from the perspective of the preserved ‘nugget.’ Only by a messianic ordering, a messianic remembering can we, as Blake put it, “see a world in a grain of sand.” Cultural idealism appeals for validation towards the court of universal “truth,” whereby it can be elected as most ‘valid.'

Can you expand upon this? I am quite certain I do not see this Judaic/messianic assertion at work in BM as described, but perhaps you have specific examples in mind that would paint a clearer picture. Heroicism and cultural idealism yes...but wherein comes the messianic - or still more specifically, what is meant by "messianic remebering?" What manner of universal "truth" is being sought one way or the other - but perhaps an(often simplistic)rejection of the "truths" of convention and belief?

 

[waif]

Can you expand upon this? I am quite certain I do not see this Judaic/messianic assertion at work in BM as described, but perhaps you have specific examples in mind that would paint a clearer picture. Heroicism and cultural idealism yes...but wherein comes the messianic - or still more specifically, what is meant by "messianic remebering?" What manner of universal "truth" is being sought one way or the other - but perhaps an(often simplistic)rejection of the "truths" of convention and belief?

Agreed. Heoicism and cultural idealism are obviously prevalent in black metal, but I don't really see any universal "truth" in the music...generally just seems to be revivalist culural idealism as a rejection of modern scandinavian culture...

 

[Seditious]

Anything hinting towards an awareness of beings as other than nothing-but-commodity might be called authentically 'religious.'

curious

 

[waif]

Anything hinting towards an awareness of beings as other than nothing-but-commodity might be called authentically 'religious.' At their best, black and death metal can be authentically religious.

Please define nothing-but-commodity...you talk like someone who's been dead for 1300 years...

 

[Tallerthanatree]

I was raised Christian and had at least some belief remaining into my teens...yet I adored Mercyfull fate, Venom, etc. all along. Wrong? nonsense!

HAIL!

 

[death metal black metal]

Metal is obviously the most abrasively anti-organized-religion subculture you could find

I dunno. I think metal is a replacement religion, and that religion is romanticism.

 

[Opethian666]

Romanticism is not a religion...

Anyway, I'm an atheist, I despise religion, and I cringe when I hear christian/satanic/whatever messages in music (in the cases the band is merely "storytelling" and doesn't actually believe in these things, it's much easier to accept), but if the music itself is really good, then I'll just take the religious aspect along with it, since it is only a minor aspect.

 

[death metal black metal]

Romanticism is not a religion...

Anything is a religion, if interpreted religiously.

 

[waif]

I dunno. I think metal is a replacement religion, and that religion is romanticism.

Maybe, but it's not an organized religion...there's no Church of Metal or anything (Though there totally should be). My point is that metal is really anti-establishment; there's no real organization. Most bands hate even being classified by genre. Metal isn't neccessarily anti-religion, just anti-organized religion.

 

[Opethian666]

Anything is a religion, if interpreted religiously.

Conventionally, religion implies the supernatural and deities. You could define religion as broader, but then it would lose its meaning since there are numerous other terms that define the same thing as what you would consider a religion.