Messages in music

[Kenneth R.]

and you have all missed my point. i am saying just because something appears similar to something else, that does NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT automatically mean it is derivative of the earlier similar item. civilization has developed worldwide in different but often similar ways, in many cases without contact between groups until late in development. would you argue that Mayan civilization "stole" ideas from China? or ancient Europe? Until the explorers landed, I think not.

Once again: There may be vague similarities to religions, such as themes of resurrection, miracles, and other event similarities. however, these do not equate derivation. you CANNOT say that because a story of a pagan god getting resurrected, that Jesus was derivative of that being's story and thus based on it and an "adapted fake". you cannot draw those conclusions without stronger evidence than storyline similarities. there simply is not enough evidence for these groundless claims.

i am not missing the point here. i am dismissing it. on the basis stated above. Christianity inspired by paganism? Christ himself said there is but one God, and he is God. how is that inspired by paganism? it is a different philosophy, taught by a different man, and it is one i believe in. i believe in Christ because i have seen miracles, and i have sought answers and questioned christianity and found my answers validated.

speed, i am not arguing that there are no similarities. i am arguing that these minor similarities do not equate derivation.

correct me if i am wrong, but paganism was a european thing no? christianity originated in the middle-east...

 

[Under The Oak]

yes perhaps I was a but harsh, and I offer my apologies for that. I love to argue. Still you have really missed the point. I feel like I am talking to a wall. I am still more than confused how you cannot see the similarities, inspiration, and downright combining of the two religions? For god sakes man, even the churches were converted pagan temples.

I get the point you're trying to make, and to an extent, I do agree, but I don't think it's so widespread as you think it is. All religions probably inspire each other in some way or another, because most of them are in a kind of competition like "my god can beat up your's". I can see the similarities, as I said, but none of us can prove they influenced Christianity, we only assume that. Every religion and culture has a story of a great flood, does that mean they all copied off the first one that wrote it down? No, it only lends further credibility to the possibility that a great flood actually happened!

The ancient Chinese have symbols that translate to "lamb of God", "great flood", "divine tree of knowledge", etc. Does that mean they copied off Christianity? As a matter of fact, it's highly unlikely, since they mostly kept to themselves for centuries. This just goes to show that some cultures can have ancestral connections without "stealing" from each other. I know there is paganism in contemporary Christianity, but I do not believe the Bible is over-run with it.

I will admit there are texual errors in the Bible passed on through translation, but those do not account for errors in the messages of the original copies. All the different translations, works of antiquity, and gnostic texts only show me that these scriptures have been preserved very well over the years. In the Bible, there are only slight differences of incredibly inconsequential detail, in stark contrast to other ancient texts such as the Illiad, which comes in second behind the Bible with SO much less textual reliability.

It doesnt mean Christianity is paganism; it means much of Christianity was inspired and drawn from pagan ideas not jewish ones. Is that so horrible? Every religion has vestiges of earlier religions.

I wouldn't say "much" of it has been, but in the traditional sense it has become, that's true. Church, praying with your eyes closed, Christmas, Easter, and a lot of the rituals performed today under the guise of Christianity are indeed either pagan or extensively altered over the years. However, the Jewish ideas of Jesus were around before the New Testament in the prophecies of the Old, if you want to get downright specific. I'm not saying pagans copied it from the Old Testament, but when word gets around, ideas do change. My faith revolves around God though, and it's kinda pointless for me to believe it descended from paganism when my belief holds that God probably had the ideas first. Not to mention that I do believe we all have ideals of "God" or a higher existent being in our mind that have been passed down in different manifestations throughout the generations.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to let that stop me from checking into the history and validity of my own faith too. You have to agree that ideas circulate even when they have already been proven false, and so I just don't give more credibility to pagan copycat myths than they're worth, since I have found so many of them to be faulty before. I still appreciate the rumors, facts, mythology and stuff, because it helps me examine both sides of the arguement better in the hopes of finding the truth. Just because I think I've already found it doesn't mean that I have, or that I should stop searching.

 

[Under The Oak]

EDIT: Sorry, it posted twice.

 

[speed]

ok ok, we have laid this little issue to rest finally Taylor C. I dont think we have any misunderstandings anymore.

 

[Intoxicator]

Krishna and Christ

#6 & 45: Yeshua and Krishna were called both a God and the Son of God.
7: Both was sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man.
8 & 46: Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity.
13, 15, 16 & 23: His adoptive human father was a carpenter.
18: A spirit or ghost was their actual father.
21: Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent.
27 & 28: Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.
30 to 34: Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna's parents stayed in Mathura.
41 & 42: Both Yeshua and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted.
56: Both were identified as "the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head."
58: Jesus was called "the lion of the tribe of Judah." Krishna was called "the lion of the tribe of Saki."
60: Both claimed: "I am the Resurrection."
64: Both referred to themselves having existed before their birth on earth.
66: Both were "without sin."
72: Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine.
76, 77, & 78: They were both considered omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
83, 84, & 85: Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured "all manner of diseases."
86 & 87: Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead.
101: Both selected disciples to spread his teachings.
109 to 112: Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners.
115: Both encountered a Gentile woman at a well.
121 to 127: Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies.
128 to 131: Both descended into Hell, and were resurrected. Many people witnessed their ascensions into heaven.

 

[Under The Oak]

*sigh* I knew someone would do this. If you're really interested in hearing those refuted or challenged, I recommend these sites:

www.apologetics.org
www.answersingenesis.org
www.carm.org
www.christian-thinktank.com
www.tektonics.org

There are also numerous books out there, but I doubt you're posting that list with any intent other than to "deface" the discussion here. Don't interject unless you have something better to say than just copy and paste more comparisons.

 

[speed]

*sigh* I knew someone would do this. If you're really interested in hearing those refuted or challenged, I recommend these sites:

www.apologetics.org
www.answersingenesis.org
www.carm.org
www.christian-thinktank.com
www.tektonics.org

There are also numerous books out there, but I doubt you're posting that list with any intent other than to "deface" the discussion here. Don't interject unless you have something better to say than just copy and paste more comparisons.

I reviewed those sites, and only the tektonics one is somewhat objective. C'mon Taylor C, i thought you got it, now you are merely using christian propaganda.

 

[Kenneth R.]

despite how many times i post it, and regardless of the use of capital letters, you (.scissors.) do not understand the point i am making, or you are ignoring it.

historical similarities do not in any way validate claims of derivation. you need better proof than "they had the same hair color too!"

 

[Darth Kur]

The only thing you seem to get, jebus boy, is the propaganda that's been spoon fed to you. So what you're saying is that despite ALL of the similarities it's just one big coincidence. BULLSHIT! Accept it, your god is a lie. Your messiah is a fake. You're wasting your fucking life!

 

[Kenneth R.]

if you believe that, then you also believe paganism to be a lie. and you also believe judaism, and islam to be a lie. while we're at it, let's just say all religions are lies. so where do you stand now?

i'd like to see you argue without the profanity and insults, they severely diminish your arguments.

perhaps you are wasting your life trying to "convert" me to what you believe, despite my firm resolve that i will never renounce what i have come to see as the way i view the world. it is not propaganda, and it is not spoon fed to me.

if you must know, i used to be atheist, but i became agnostic, and finally christian through what i have experienced _my self_ and what i have seen _my self_ and through reading and questioning the bible and my faith _my self_ and finding evidence for what i sought. i have come to be christian on my own.

if there's anyone spoon fed propaganda, it is you, crusader of science. you presume to lecture me and you presume to insult and scold me, though all you have done is spout belligerant hot air with groundless claims and an utter lack of real evidence.

bottom line: you've still never answered my question of where all this stuff you say comes from (since it is apparently groundless and propaganda) and you are still too afraid to type the word Christ for fear it may spread his message in some way. if he is such a "lie" then what harm is there in that word?

 

[Darth Kur]

You just DON'T get it do you?!?!? I am NOT afraid of anything especially your pathetic "christ"! I loathe it, that's why I CHOOSE not to spell it out. It's a way to insult it, you dumb fuck. And yes, I do despise islam, judaism along with x-tianity. In fact ALL religions are stupid, groundless and false. Science is all. That's the only truth there is.

 

[Kenneth R.]

a truth that is constantly being proven false? science is the methodology of hypothesizing what IS by systematically eliminating that which is NOT.

what is so "true" about a transient philosophy? if you ask me, science is a useful tool, a powerful tool, but nothing more.

i seriously doubt you are not afraid of anything.

 

[Under The Oak]

I reviewed those sites, and only the tektonics one is somewhat objective. C'mon Taylor C, i thought you got it, now you are merely using christian propaganda.

Actually, the Christian-Thinktank is the most objective. I didn't say those were purely objective resources though, I simply provided them as alternatives to the claims Scissors posted. I view most of what you guys posted as pagan/atheist propaganda too, so I thought it would be fair enough. If you took the time to seriously look over several of those sites, you'd find them very logical, rational, and objective.

Darth Kur, you don't have to be involved with this topic. You've done little more than rant about how much you hate religions of all kinds. We get it. You're a slave to science and the "intellectualism" of modern man. Try and save yourself if you want to, but if you have nothing to offer other than your incessant bitching, you can leave.

 

[Darth Kur]

I'll leave when I choose to, not before. And if I want to rant on endlessly upon how worthless all religions are then that is also my choice. And you can go pound salt if you don't like it.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i find debating your hollow arguments more effective than pounding salt

 

[Darth Kur]

You're the one with the hollow beliefs, pal. It really is pointless bickering with someone that is so completely blind to reality. :Smug:

 

[Kenneth R.]

and how, pray tell, are you so sure that your worldview is without question the one and true "reality" and that mine is therefore false? you have no way to back that up, at all.

 

[Darth Kur]

You are utterly worthless. I have backed it up with dozens of pieces of evidence. I shall never speak with you again. My hatred for you is causing me far more stress then a young little mindless pissant such as yourself is worth. Fuck off and die.

 

[Kenneth R.]

you have presented nothing. the evidence you speak of is that presented by speed and .scissors. and i have already adressed that. you have presented only frothing hatred and mild stupidity

 

[speed]

Can we all just calm down here and have another pleasant yet fun argument? Who cares really? Im sure we would all be civil if we actually were talking in person.

I suppose that is impossible on UM. I dont know how many times I have been in such arguments that I dont let go because someone starts insulting me as they have nothing else to say. Its the main reason I am now only posting once or twice a day now, and only on this board.