Religion and Metal

[waif]

Have you seen the documentary on Gaahl from his place? If you remove the music and the most shocking acts or words, it's really a normal house in rural Western part of Norway, and it needs some paint.

So basically, there's nothing inherently evil about Gaahl's house, it's just the man himself? Good point.

But of couse he has to stand by his actions(torture). In the end I don't know what I can take seriously of the things he says in that interview, and I don't understand his english:Smug:

Ok, his english is better than yours. Anyhow, he stands by his actions because they are the direct result of acting upon his philosophy. You should at least take him seriously in that he is a serious guy doing what he believes. However fucked up what he believes may be is another topic.

Also, I love the part at the end of it where he says "I don't think you are representing what I'm trying to say" or something and then there's a (literally) two minute silence. Kinda suspect that not all the film crew made it back.

 

[OldScratch]

I've just spent about 3 pages doing that.



Point taken...
Now, if you want me to go deeper into those admittedly undeveloped generalities, I'd be happy to... I've trying to hold back and stay on topic, but I have a lot more to say.

You can if you wish of course - but this topic has been fleshed-out here in pretty specific detail more than once, as I'm sure you can imagine. Still, it is up to you if you think you have pursuasive information likely to change, or stimulate a mind or two...just remember - this is well-trodden, if overly familiar territory, etc.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Wait, so they're undeveloped generalities... but... they

have been fleshed-out here in pretty specific detail more than once,

???

 

[OldScratch]

Wait, so they're undeveloped generalities... but... they
???

The "generalities" referenced in an earlier post were in regard to this particular thread. The topics of religion and Christianity in particular(in or out of Metal)have been discussed at great length here(at the Forum) - just do a quick search.
The point was that is might be best to try and show why for instance, philosophically speaking, your "beliefs" are supportable - take it well beyond the "I believe, I think,I feel, etc." In other words, show explicitly why the tenets of the "belief" are sound and supportable - that type of thing. Just a suggestion to keep the thread from meandering around who does or doesn't 'believe,' and going in circles for three more pages.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

...show why for instance, philosophically speaking, your "beliefs" are supportable - take it well beyond the "I believe, I think,I feel, etc." In other words, show explicitly why the tenets of the "belief" are sound and supportable - that type of thing. Just a suggestion to keep the thread from meandering around who does or doesn't 'believe,' and going in circles for three more pages.

Religion is about belief. So is atheism. We can't talk about this without talking about beliefs.
When you say "supportable," are you asking me to prove them? Because obviously no belief system can be proven. Christianity can't, Islam can't, and atheism can't.
So... I don't understand...

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Atheism isn't a belief system. It is the lack of a belief in supernatural deities. The world looks precisely as it would if there were no gods, so why posit it? I don't know how you can take someone who doesn't concern themselves with stone age mythology and compare them to someone reciting the nicene creed and call them both "believers".

 

[OldScratch]

Religion is about belief. So is atheism. We can't talk about this without talking about beliefs.
When you say "supportable," are you asking me to prove them? Because obviously no belief system can be proven. Christianity can't, Islam can't, and atheism can't.
So... I don't understand...

It should be safe to say we all understand that religion is based in "faith" or belief. Though(and largely because)such things cannot be necessarily proven to exist, by "supportable" I meant what reason is there to believe at all? In other words, what about your belief causes you to accept it as factual? What makes something decidedly implausable in this age of scientific and technological understanding, remain so attractive and indeed believable to folks like yourself?

*I have no deep desire to debate theology one way or the other to be perfectly honest. Obviously I am not a believer myself - I was merely suggesting a direction to take the debate, so as to perhaps understand why some still support these ancient mystical ideas, etc.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Atheism isn't a belief system. It is the lack of a belief.

So you believe in... NOTHING? You believe that there is no God, that's a belief.

It should be safe to say we all understand that religion is based in "faith" or belief. Though(and largely because)such things cannot be necessarily proven to exist, by "supportable" I meant what reason is there to believe at all?

I've discussed this multiple times on this forum with multiple people, just scroll back.

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Oh, come on. I also believe that there's no celestial teapot orbiting the Sun between Mars and Jupiter.

 

[Seditious]

So you believe in... NOTHING? You believe that there is no God, that's a belief.

he said 'belief system' not 'belief'---an atheist isn't necessarily a secular humanist, a supporter of gay rights, a democrat, a capitalist, a pro-choicer, etc.

there is no system of beliefs entailed by atheism, it is but one belief.

 

[waif]

Oh, come on. I also believe that there's no celestial teapot orbiting the Sun between Mars and Jupiter.

Russell's Teapot FTW

 

[Alter]

I am a Catholic; not a evangelical. There is a large amount of difference in the way they act.


I dont shove my religion down anyones throat and I listen to/know of more metal than a lot of people. I dont give a fuck if you dont think the same way as me.

 

[Seditious]

I dont shove my religion down anyones throat.

because you can't. you have nothing to say to defend your nonsense, so of course you have to be silent.

 

[Alter]

because you can't. you have nothing to say to defend your nonsense, so of course you have to be silent.

Whatever. People like you dot interest me so I dont see the point of arguing about something that wont make a change in a lot of people so fuck it.

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

I am a Catholic; not a evangelical. There is a large amount of difference in the way they act.


I dont shove my religion down anyones throat and I listen to/know of more metal than a lot of people. I dont give a fuck if you dont think the same way as me.

We've come a long way from Torquemada. Kinda hard for you Catholics to argue now that you can't apply the thumbscrews eh?

 

[Seditious]

I dont see the point of arguing about something that wont make a change in a lot of people.

for the same reason I don't see a point in fighting Mike Tyson---it can only end badly for me.

 

[waif]

Whatever. People like you dot interest me so I dont see the point of arguing about something that wont make a change in a lot of people so fuck it.

Uh...then why bother posting?

Actually, the reason you shouldn't argue is because the harder you fight, the clearer it becomes that you don't really have any logical basis for your arguements.

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

he said 'belief system' not 'belief'---an atheist isn't necessarily a secular humanist, a supporter of gay rights, a democrat, a capitalist, a pro-choicer, etc.

Seriously, nobody's been reading this discussion...
A Christian isn't necessarily a republican, gay-bashing, pro-lifer, etc...
How are people not getting this?

 

[WeAreTheLastMen]

Actually, the reason you shouldn't argue is because the harder you fight, the clearer it becomes that you don't really have any logical basis for your arguements.

You obviously haven't read his argument. He doesn't even have an argument. All he said was that he doesn't shove his religion down anyone's throat. You're saying there's no logical basis for that? It's called READING (as in, his post - as in, before you say dumb things about it).

 

[The Poona of Peshwa]

Seriously, nobody's been reading this discussion...
A Christian isn't necessarily a republican, gay-bashing, pro-lifer, etc...
How are people not getting this?

You can't be serious. . . Are you saying that Christianity is not a belief system? A Christian claims to know the mind of the creator of the universe, and that he entered human form and walked around palestine a few millenia ago!

An atheist recognizes that there is no need for that hypothesis and moves on to other things.

Seriously, your whole argument seems to amount to "I know you are, but what am I?"