Messages in music

[no country for old wainds]

To me, it seems self-evident. Nobody is going to write music so inaccessible for the purposes of entertainment (until it becomes a trend, at least), and in such aggressive, intense music which not only focused on death, deconstruction and chaos but was literally named after death, it's obvious that there's an underlying seriousness spawned from a belief system rather than a desire to please fans or to stay true to a lifestyle. This belief system unified and defined it as a genre, plenty of bands which sound very different are clumped together because the underlying factor is their goal to present a feral, natural, very real world free from order and anything but free from death.

I can't really prove it, one can ask people who were around in the early '90s when DM was really pushing boundaries or earlier but one can also deny the credibility of any of these sources.

 

[Kenneth R.]

how do christian themes contradict that basis?

no matter what you believe in, we all die. death is a very real and very powerful topic in any philosophy. and would not some feel intensely about such a subject?

 

[LDGuy]

Personally, if the music sounds good, I'd like it. I just don't want anything thrust in my face. But it's gotta be good music.

And, tbh, I couldn't really care less about Band X's beliefs and shit. I'm very much an atheist, and I hate damn cristians trying to "convert" me, and I'd really hate it if it was happening through music...

 

[Goreripper]

I'm not sure I agree with the argument that death metal and Christianity are mutually exclusive. I think the Mortification albums "Mortification", "Scrolls of the Megilloth" and "Post-Momentary Affliction" are a case in point, "Scrolls..." in particular. It's like saying that Christian bands can't play doom when clearly quite a number of them do. DM is a musical style, not an ideology. You can use it to express whatever you like.

 

[no country for old wainds]

how do christian themes contradict that basis?

no matter what you believe in, we all die. death is a very real and very powerful topic in any philosophy. and would not some feel intensely about such a subject?

Well, by death I mean ending and no longer existing in any shape or form (as do most on the extreme metal side of things), whilst Christianity suggests that we continue to exist in another form/realm.

And yes, but the bit of my post about intensity was part of my explanation as to how death metal is art defined by a serious belief system, I wasn't claiming that another genre spawned for the purpose of addressing death in some form wouldn't also be art. Just that rock and blues aren't.

 

[Goreripper]

Well, by death I mean ending and no longer existing in any shape or form (as do most on the extreme metal side of things),

I would seriously call that belief into question. I think there are very, very few people who don't believe in some kind of existence beyond death. Such a concept is way too frightening for most people.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Aye, but it's often because of people's inability to dismiss logic that they get into extreme metal in the first place, or vice-versa. Those into underground metal are a minority, don't forget, my statement and yours don't necessarily contradict one another.

 

[ProjectedBlack]

I'll listen to anything as long as it's good. Although I identify myself as a Christian I'm a big Emperor, Morbid Angel, The Crown, etc. fan. The only group that really turned me off with lyrics alone was Cannibal Corpse, but other then that I'm game to listen to anything. My group has religious overtones but they're not very direct, a lot of our stuff is anti-hatred and anti-society, sometimes fueled by my Christian beliefs and sometimes just fueled by the beliefs I have as your everyday person. We still deal with the topics of destruction, death and the forces of darkness however. We also have more border-line stuff that comes across as a little violent, but has a message under the lyrics if you were to look into them.

Sometimes a group will appeal to me a little more if they have a message I relate with, Nightrage comes immediatly to mind with a lot of their positive and heroic overtones.

 

[cthulufhtagn]

I maintain that the death metal sound can not be created as anything other than an expression of the values at the core of its evolution as a genre. Tacking Christianity (or anything else in conflict with the essential mindset which creates the DM sound) onto an album via lyrics, interviews or otherwise can't have any coherent purpose in expression.

I think our disagreement seems to boil down to whether death metal is an explicitly musical style or if it comes packaged with certain ideological principles. I view it essentially as a musical style, however it has certain associations that aren't explicitly defined as inherent to the genre--death, chaos, rage, darkness, the dark side of the human experience. You can't really be playing that kind of music if your message is "Let's all get together and be happy," so I do see what you're saying when you claim that Christianity is largely incongruent with it, which I guess is why you see so few Christian DM bands. With other topics though, such as the natural world, or pagan religions, I don't see much of a conflict.

 

[Kenneth R.]

well, christianity doesn't have to be presented like happy sunshine.
there's a lot to talk about involving the darker side of things, and where they lead.

 

[Zhou Tai 04]

Not to mention there are many Christian metal bands on www.darklyrics.com. I would also suggest that you guys check out the thread I made about Christian metal in the General Music Discussion Forum.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i saw that thread. excellent list and also i admire your words on defending/clarifying christianity for those who don't "get it" and simply bash on it because its the "cool" thing to do.

 

[Darth Kur]

Oh, I "get it" all right. In fact I 'got it" for years. I've seen it from the inside and studied it deeply. I was a prominent member of the dogma contrivance. It's when I discovered all the inherent hypocrisy in the entire system and all the others for that matter, that I decided to embrace reality and forever turn my back upon a decrepit brain washing parasitical system that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth.
Believe me, I don't give a flying fuck what's considered "cool" these days, especially since all the vile filth the media propaganda machine force feeds people is considered by most "cool".
The only thing I give a damn about is what's real. And it's a sad reality that all of these brow beating systems are nothing but anti-anxiety pacifiers at the very least, blinding people to the truth of life or twisted corrupt mechanisms of mass control to beat people into submission by means of intimidation and terror at worst.
I consider the latter as the more common usage.

 

[Zhou Tai 04]

You have not been to every church and talked to every Christian on Earth. How then can you pass judgement on all of Christianity based on only a small part of it? I for one have not seen one single church or Christian that oppresses people or forces their beliefs on anyone, and I am very much against anyone who is like that. Some Christians are like what you have described, and others are not.

For instance, if I were to go to the store and buy an apple, and it looked good on the outside, but tasted very bad, would I be correct in assuming that all apples from that store are bad? The same thing goes with these "bad apple" Christians and churches. They do not make up the entirety of the Christian demographic.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Word.

 

[no country for old wainds]

It's worth noting that:

1. Christianity has a widely-accepted, fundamental set of values. Otherwise I could go outside and shit on the grass and say it's Christianity, and nobody would be able to argue, thus the label would be entirely worthless.

2. Christianity spawned liberalism which governs our society which is killing us. No two ways about it.

 

[Zhou Tai 04]

Would you mind explaining point #2?

 

[no country for old wainds]

Egalitarianism, moralism, etc are all fundamental characteristics of the value system running the western world. They are all derived from Christian theology, merely presented in a secular form. We're dying because we're making the environment less and less habitable with each passing day.

 

[Zhou Tai 04]

Sorry...I still don't really know what you're getting at.

 

[Kenneth R.]

nor do i. how does Christianity contribute to environmental destruction?

if anything is to blame for that, it is consumption. consumption of oil, wood/paper products, and massive over use of such things. it is the rapid "need" of these one-time use products that originate in non-replenishable (forests are not realistically replenishable at the rate we cut them down) resources.

if you want to point the finger at polluters, blame big corporations, nuclear power companies, and industrialized development. blame the mentality that BIGGER and MORE is BETTER. blame greed and desire.

if you point the finger for these things at Christianity or any religion other than the so-called religion of self indulgence, you are absolutely wrong.

as for morality, if you have an issue with that, i don't understand what harm it does that people act on "good intent".