Messages in music

[no country for old wainds]

A simple bloke might rape someone with good intentions for all you know, it doesn't make it better.

Anyway you're thinking too directly. I agree that over-consumption (as well as over-population) is mostly to blame, and that greed is a primary reason for it, but the mentality of the collective is shaped by the society it's built in. Greed is not the source, it is a product of the source.

 

[Fourka]

I briefly read all posts in this thread. I agree with GoD. I believe that the point is not to try and fit a theme/ideology in a specific music genre. It doesn't work like that. Music is a way to express yourself and your ideas. DM represents the feelings and ideas that make you feel while listening to it. I fail to see any point on why one should try to fit Christianity in a music genre that has been created by ideas and feelings opposite to the ideas of Christianity. You start by the theme, you go on to the feelings, and you get a result which is music. Different ideas and feelings will lead to different results - different kind of music - thus we tend to categorize them into music genres. It is meaningless to invert "input" and "output" and start doing your thing in that way (input being the feelings, and output being the music).
On the other hand, I am not quite sure about the "dark side" of Christianity...

 

[Kenneth R.]

A simple bloke might rape someone with good intentions for all you know, it doesn't make it better.

Anyway you're thinking too directly. I agree that over-consumption (as well as over-population) is mostly to blame, and that greed is a primary reason for it, but the mentality of the collective is shaped by the society it's built in. Greed is not the source, it is a product of the source.

and like i've told you about 100000 times already (but you just don't seem to understand) what is currently shaping our society is NOT christianity. those who say it is, do not understand what christianity is about.


Fourka: we've gone over this a dozen times as well. Metal and its subgenres (with the exception of most Black Metal) is not inherently AntiChristian. it isn't. so there is no contradiction in the idea of "christian" metal.

 

[speed]

Egalitarianism, moralism, etc are all fundamental characteristics of the value system running the western world. They are all derived from Christian theology, merely presented in a secular form. We're dying because we're making the environment less and less habitable with each passing day.

I somewhat disagree, because christianity was distorted into so many different forms throughout history its hard to say what caused what. In most cases the relgion mirrors the culture; that is a culture influences a religion not so much vice versa. For instance, in the middle ages the church enforced a prevaling social order that had nothing to do with christianity, and more to do with power, economics etc. In addition the entire notion of northern protestanism/calvinism is the primacy of the individual not the group.

One could say Humanism is even more at fault for these ideas. And the humanists derived their beliefs from the Greeks, Romans, and their arab translations.

 

[speed]

and like i've told you about 100000 times already (but you just don't seem to understand) what is currently shaping our society is NOT christianity. those who say it is, do not understand what christianity is about.


Fourka: we've gone over this a dozen times as well. Metal and its subgenres (with the exception of most Black Metal) is not inherently AntiChristian. it isn't. so there is no contradiction in the idea of "christian" metal.

I agree with you SIlent SOng. Except for American politics, christianity is ancient and obsolete and has no susbstantial influence on anything. Its influence wore off because of these humanistic and scientific advances, liberties and ideas of the last 250 years. We use the earth for everything, there is no divinity left in it anymore, nothing but materialism

 

[Fourka]

Fourka: we've gone over this a dozen times as well. Metal and its subgenres (with the exception of most Black Metal) is not inherently AntiChristian. it isn't. so there is no contradiction in the idea of "christian" metal.

I didn't say that metal generally is anti-christian. But, I would say that both BM and DM are.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Liberalism (which rules our society) came from Christian theology and Jewish philosophy (which are closely connected). The two can't be separated except by statements like "it's not what Christianity is supposed to be about", which are irrelevant.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I agree with you Silent Song. Except for American politics, christianity is ancient and obsolete and has no susbstantial influence on anything. Its influence wore off because of these humanistic and scientific advances, liberties and ideas of the last 250 years. We use the earth for everything, there is no divinity left in it anymore, nothing but materialism

i think that's a common thought among people but i don't think its True.. i think Christianity is in fact even moreso necessary in this day and age than it was 2000 years ago. I am against the use of religion in government, but at the same time I can see how our society has gone and warped/ignored most religion entirely (not just christianity). in that sense i am saying Christianity is not the focus or driving force of American society. instead, American society is based around constant self-indulgence and need need need, buy buy buy, dominate and control. "be important, be famous". it is an expression of power and wealth in the worst of ways. i don't see these things as even loosely related to Christianity, they are often discussed in the bible as things which are not Christian. in fact, i'd say society calls itself Christian and uses icons and images from it as a wishful association that just doesn't exist.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Liberalism (which rules our society) came from Christian theology and Jewish philosophy (which are closely connected). The two can't be separated except by statements like "it's not what Christianity is supposed to be about", which are irrelevant.

Your statement is irrelevant.

how can you say "Christianity is not about these values. however, those people who hold these values call it (wrongly) Christianity. therefore, Christianity is the fault of these bad values."

that is utter stupidity Gallantry.

you realize that you're blaming a philosophy that others who do not adhere to it have used for their own purposes for "problems" you see in society? don't blame Christianity, blame those idiots who warped it. blame the ones who call themselves Christian but profess that crap that you claim rules society.

i blame them for mislabeling my religion. i blame them for the flak i often get regarding Christianity and what it entails, because people see those who claim to be Christian but profess and enact that stupidity and thus give those of us who actually ARE Christian a bad name.

you've got your facts all mixed up. you're pointing the finger at the wrong guy.

 

[speed]

i think that's a common thought among people but i don't think its True.. i think Christianity is in fact even moreso necessary in this day and age than it was 2000 years ago. I am against the use of religion in government, but at the same time I can see how our society has gone and warped/ignored most religion entirely (not just christianity). in that sense i am saying Christianity is not the focus or driving force of American society. instead, American society is based around constant self-indulgence and need need need, buy buy buy, dominate and control. "be important, be famous". it is an expression of power and wealth in the worst of ways. i don't see these things as even loosely related to Christianity, they are often discussed in the bible as things which are not Christian. in fact, i'd say society calls itself Christian and uses icons and images from it as a wishful association that just doesn't exist.

As weird as this sounds I agree with you. I too think some religion needs to be propogated on the world to save us from ourselves and the continual increase of science and money. the religion can be a secular one, or a religious one; it doesnt matter. But I think man right now is looking for some sanctuary more than money or science; EXtreme Baptist Chrisitianity has been one route for those with lesser intelligence.

As for liberalism coming from judaism and christianity, I disagree. Rather, Liberalism came from those who denied christianity and wanted to create a new faith; communism, anarchism etc. Of course they were influenced by christianity and judaism, but they were also influenced by science and a pessimism about religion.

 

[AsModEe]

I wonder when people will choose reason over belief...

Judge the world with your own values and reasonnings, not with your beliefs.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Your statement is irrelevant.

how can you say "Christianity is not about these values. however, those people who hold these values call it (wrongly) Christianity. therefore, Christianity is the fault of these bad values."

that is utter stupidity Gallantry.

you realize that you're blaming a philosophy that others who do not adhere to it have used for their own purposes for "problems" you see in society? don't blame Christianity, blame those idiots who warped it. blame the ones who call themselves Christian but profess that crap that you claim rules society.

i blame them for mislabeling my religion. i blame them for the flak i often get regarding Christianity and what it entails, because people see those who claim to be Christian but profess and enact that stupidity and thus give those of us who actually ARE Christian a bad name.

you've got your facts all mixed up. you're pointing the finger at the wrong guy.

No, I'm saying that the originators might not have intended for the values to mess up society. I'm not saying that they didn't promote the values themselves.

The core values of liberalism are a fundamental part of Christianity, I doubt you're contradicting this. They were also introduced into our society by Christianity.

A good 99% of people in the world today, whether believers or not, share (at least most of) those liberal beliefs, and I think they have an unhealthy effect upon things in general (not because they've been corrupted, either). Those at the top are often far from being devout Christians, but they still ensure that egalitarianism and other such Christian values are the most important things to most people in the world.

 

[no country for old wainds]

As for liberalism coming from judaism and christianity, I disagree. Rather, Liberalism came from those who denied christianity and wanted to create a new faith; communism, anarchism etc. Of course they were influenced by christianity and judaism, but they were also influenced by science and a pessimism about religion.

How on Earth is equality, for example, influenced by science? :/ Note that I'm taking the fundamental values of modern liberalism (and I'm not just talking the democrats here) as egalitarianism, moralism, etc... all things which are considered an absolute good/right by the Christian religion, or in some cases directly result from it.

 

[Cythraul]

Of course, we all know that the moral precepts implicit in liberalism couldn't have possibly been arrived at through reason It must be the result of fideistic, Christian dogma!!!

 

[no country for old wainds]

good/bad moral absolutism then, if you want specifics it can be traced back through history to its origin in Christianity.

 

[Cythraul]

good/bad moral absolutism then, if you want specifics it can be traced back through history to its origin in Christianity.

Not really.

 

[speed]

Im not totally disagreeing with you GOD, I am only disagreeing on how much Christianity influenced liberalism.

Remember from your history Liberalism was created, thought of, etc, after and during the fall of the Catholic/christian faith. And by the 17th century, many of the precepts of Calivinism, Lutheranism etc, pretty much gave way as well. Liberalism was created at the same time of the rise of science and its cultured sibling Humanism. Liberalism was the secular counterpoint to christianity.

What better to offer the masses but secular material earth bound freedom instead of spiritual freedom and equality in a supposed afterlife? So of course it is related to Chrisitianity, but such ideas are offered as a material alternative.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I wonder when people will choose reason over belief...

Judge the world with your own values and reasonnings, not with your beliefs.

once again let me clarify for you:

first off. values and beliefs are essentially identical. so your second sentence makes no sense.

secondly. why is reason more important that belief? do you believe nothing? i'd say they are BOTH integral parts of identity and important tools with which to view and assess the world and in decision making. without reason, belief would be blind and vain. without belief, reason would be half-hearted and robotic. they are not opposing elements. rather, they are seperate but interconnected entities that serve and support each other.

i'm surprised you think that reason alone should rule the world. that is the world of computation, robotics, and lack of individuality.

 

[Silver Incubus]

IF you were not afraid to go to hell when you die, would you christians still believe in christianity?

You have to say that you believe because you fear the consequences of not believing. And as such, had adhered to words written by flesh and blood.

But punishment in the afterlife has been around longer then christianity, so I guess they liked the way it controlled the masses who would not explore their own reality to its fullest, but instead accept a previously made up reality based on some good values.

So, even the prettiest bottle of poison, is still poison on the inside.

So really, its not the messages but the way it makes people think, esp about reality.

 

[Fourka]

IF you were not afraid to go to hell when you die, would you christians still believe in christianity?

You have to say that you believe because you fear the consequences of not believing. And as such, had adhered to words written by flesh and blood.

But punishment in the afterlife has been around longer then christianity, so I guess they liked the way it controlled the masses who would not explore their own reality to its fullest, but instead accept a previously made up reality based on some good values.

So, even the prettiest bottle of poison, is still poison on the inside.

So really, its not the messages but the way it makes people think, esp about reality.

My grandmother used to hate all that cristian/religious stuff when she was young. Now that she's got old she is one of the most religious person in my family.