MMA

[no country for old wainds]

Dude, its plain and simple. People can speculate what they want, but when they fought Trindad whipped that ass. I would ask you to explain why in the world you think whitaker should be rater higher on a "best boxers of the past 25 years list", but there is not one single solid answer you can give me. it would all be speculation and/or excuses. nothing more.

you could say the same thing about when holmes annihilated ali though. context matters. could argue it's speculation on both sides if they never met in their respective primes, otherwise i could argue winky deserves to be above tito using the same logic.

Also, he never went 13 years without being beat. I don't now how you came up with that one.

he had one loss between '84 and '97 (42 fights) and it was seriously clueless judging, i tried scoring it generously for ramirez and the most rounds i could find were 5, and two or three of those were probably whitaker's too. he put on a masterclass in a rematch anyway but it still shouldn't have been an L.

Tito had the better record, especially if you're taking the "of the last 25 years" part of that list into consideration.

ha, you're right about that. shit, it's still hard for me to get my head around the idea that the '90s started over 25 years ago! you're probably right then in that case, a portion of pernell's prime years aren't eligible.

Look at the 3 losses on Titos record, they were to B-HOP, RJJ and Winky, those are three future hall of famers right there. What about pernells losses? Who the fuck was pestrayev? Who the fuck was carlos bojorquez? please, cmon now.

Only person that beat Trindad in his prime was Hopkins, and Winky too but some will argue that he was already going downhill by then(even though he had whooped mayorga, which isnt saying much) He had no business coming back and fighting RJJ in 08, but i guess he needed some money.

this is double standards though, man. you're making excuses for trinidad because he was going downhill, but you dismiss the same excuses for whitaker. he didn't actually lose to pestrayev btw, he won a close decision that was changed to a no contest when he tested positive for cocaine lol - but the fact that he looked like shit in a fight with some random european, which immediately preceded the tito fight, doesn't really help your case anyway. one might say that whitaker had no business fighting tito in the condition he was in at that point, same as tito rjj.

I can see why people here in the states would overrate him, but a brit on the other side of the world? Lol, im shocked.

it doesn't take much watching to see he was pretty amazing skills-wise, tbf, and a crafty little bastard when needs be. tito was a beast himself of course. i have opinions but they're not based on my love for a fighter so much as an honest evaluation of their careers. i'm open to having my mind changed.

Also, why the fuck is Vitali not on that list? How is he not one of the best boxers of the past 25 years? wtf

yeah idk either. at least we agree it's a dumb list.

Out of curiosity, do you actually agree with those lists? Any source that doesn't include tito in their top 50 is just plain wrong. You and i both know this. And there's a fucking top 100 list that doesn't have his name on it? Oh wow, that just washed away any credibility that boxing.com has or had. I dont know abot those so called "experts" but what i do know is that if you walked inside Villa Park Boxing Club and asked one of the two OG trainers, they would both tell you right off the bat that Tito is was a much better fighter than sweet pea .. and so would most of the other guys at the gym.

i think the boxing.com one's very well argued on the whole, but it's just one guy's opinion and he probably overly rewards fighters who went up several weights as opposed to ones who largely dominated a single weight class. i don't know if experts or trainers or whoever else is in a better position to comment in all honesty, i'm just saying based on various things i've read etc.

Edit: oh and Tito def won the Dela hoya fight. Oscar got hit with the harder shots and was on his bicycle for most of the fight. You thought he deserved the win?

well you're definitely in the minority on that one, i still see polls crop up on various forums and ODLH tends to win pretty comfortably, but i accept it's still hotly debated. from what i remember i thought ODLH won 2 through 8, but i might watch it again sometime soon. i was actually really happy about that decision either way, the way oscar so blatantly got on his bike once he thought he'd won it was pathetic to say the least. he only had himself to blame.

edit: and my bad if i came off a bit prickish. I usually need a few hours to settle down after waking up, lol.

no worries, i'm thick-skinned ya cunt.

 

[CiG]

Boxing so so fucking corrupt it's hard to genuinely appreciate any of it.

 

[no country for old wainds]

i actually doubt judging is as corrupt as some would have it, i suspect a lot of it is just incompetence, these days anyway. i've seen quite a few 'robberies' recently but most haven't made sense in terms of corruption, in many cases they've favoured the fighter you'd expect to get screwed over. the judging in ufc is pretty shit at times as well. this is one of the reasons it's important to actually watch fights and not just go by results.

it doesn't affect my appreciation of the sport really, anyways. the thing that bothers me is the way top fighters are able to avoid other top fighters, but the orgs seem to be cracking down on that a bit just lately so maybe there's hope yet.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

otherwise i could argue winky deserves to be above tito using the same logic.

I never said he's better just because he whooped whitakers ass . I stated plenty of reasons why he's a better fighter. And yes, i can see why some people would argue that Winky was a better boxer than Tito(although i completely disagree) Winky also had three losses right in the middle of his career. Not so comparable to what Tito was doing in his prime.

And again, we must be talking to different people because most people i know would also agree with my on the Trindiad-De la hoya fight. The fight was much closer than some people make it seem ... i did not have de la hoya winning every single one of the first 8 rounds. And he definitely lost the more important later/closing rounds. Not as controversial as some people make it out to be.

I just dont see how you can evaluate both of their careers and come with the conclusion that whitaker was the better fighter. It's mindboggling honestly. Tito was the definition of a fighter, right down to the fuckin bones. And maybe thats why most people who have actually stepped foot in a boxing gym would probably agree with me. But of course the couch-riding experts know better, no?

 

[no country for old wainds]

i don't think being a 'fighter down to the bones' necessarily makes you a greater boxer tbh, otherwise you could say, like, arturo gatti was better than mayweather or something. anyway, i'm not even arguing whitaker was 'better' so much as that he proved more - granted, if you accept the ODLH win and start taking into account their respective past-prime losses it becomes a more closely run thing, but let's not act like tito's record is way better than pernell's or something.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

its better, thats without a doubt imo. But lets move on.

How would you have scored the Trindad - De La hoya fight? You said 2-8 for Oscar right? So im assuming you gave 1 and 9-12 to Tito, no?

i don't think being a 'fighter down to the bones' necessarily makes you a greater boxer tbh,

Of course it doesnt, but when you have world class talent and skill to go along with it than you're definitely something special. I mean, did you really think i was implying that Tito was just some type of barroom brawler or something? cmon bruh

edit:

 

[no country for old wainds]

i think tito was amazing and would annihilate every welterweight currently around fyi, i'm not denying his greatness. i just think pernell was pretty insane himself, at his best he arguably looked better than mayweather ever did. it becomes a different, more nitpicky conversation when you start comparing all time greats, i really don't mean to shit on trinidad or something. enjoyed the convo, anyways!

i'll rewatch that fight and let you know how i score it, it's been years man. i'll be happy to eat crow if i score it differently!

 

[no country for old wainds]

just to paste something i posted elsewhere:

canelo vs. khan tonight. as much as i admire his cajones in taking the fight, i don't see a way for khan to win. the mainstream narrative is a false one; taking his speed disadvantages and his size/power advantages out of the equation, canelo is still simply a better, savvier boxer than khan. even if khan stays disciplined and keeps his chin out of harm's way, which is a big if, there's no reason to think he's going to be landing the more meaningful punches here - best case scenario for him is that this fight resembles canelo cotto. then again, stranger things have happened in sport this year. i'm excited partly because it's such a weird and unexpected match-up.

on the undercard, it's make or break time for long touted prospect frankie gomez. i highly recommend watching this kid as he's one of the most exciting fighters in boxing, just pure coiled explosiveness. unfortunately, for all his potential he's had a lot of problems outside the ring and failed to make weight for his last fight. this time around he's looking in shape, and he comes up against an extremely awkward opponent in mauricio herrera, who actually has an argument for being the number one fighter at 140 right now. most believe he should've got the nod against danny garcia, and he definitely should've got it against benavidez too; will it be third time lucky? i'll always root for him, he's had a raw deal so far in his career. if he loses, i hope it's a legitimate loss this time, and the emergence of an exciting new contender.

curtis stevens vs. patrick teixeira looks an evenly-matched and exciting fight. stevens, best known for pulling that "HOLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK" face after taking a golovkin punch, will probably cease to be at all relevant in the middleweight division if he loses, while this would be the best scalp of the unbeaten brazilian teixeira's career and catapult him toward a potential title shot.

the other fight will probably end early, as power-punching david lemieux goes up against a game but probably overmatched glen tapia, also at middleweight. if canelo plans to continue avoiding GGG, lemieux may be an opponent for him around the corner.

meanwhile, coming up very shortly is an IBF eliminator between kubrat pulev and dereck chisora, with the winner probably receiving the unenviable prize of facing anthony joshua next. pulev has been considered a top 5 heavyweight for a few years now, but he got brutally starched by wlad when they fought and hasn't looked particularly good since then. chisora meanwhile flopped himself against tyson fury not too long ago. this seems like a last chance saloon fight for both men - if the winner looks anything close to their best, they would be the best opponent joshua has fought to date, so that's something.

after that fight, anthony crolla is fighting ismael barroso. crolla's story has been a bit of a fairytale. he was schedule to fight richar abril for a world title when he confronted two burglars on his neighbour's property and received a fractured skull and broken ankle for his troubles, courtesy of a boulder to the head. he then managed to recover, coming back to fight another world titlist, darleys perez, getting an unfortunate, controversial draw. they rematched, and finally crolla was able to win his world title with a fifth round stoppage. this will be his first defense, and he hasn't been matched easy, going in as slight underdog against unbeaten venezuelan barroso, who blitzed through kevin mitchell late last year. again, this is a tricky fight to call with a nice story behind it.

meanwhile in the UFC, overeem vs. arlovski is the one i'm interested in, and it's gonna either be awesome or terrible.

 

[no country for old wainds]

pulev outboxed chisora (118-110 on my card) and one judge somehow contrived to give it to chisora. yeesh. solid performance though, he'll be a stern test for joshua or parker, whichever ends up facing him next. chisora wasn't as bad as i feared but he's clearly on the downslide, i imagine he'll be done after another domestic payday or two. i wouldn't be shocked to see him losing a haye rematch or something along those lines.

the other fight was completely insane. barroso threw about 500 punches in the first four rounds and looked shit hot, like roman gonzalez on crack or something, and then he gassed so hard and so fast that he was looking like chris arreola by the sixth. crolla, to his credit, expected this and fought accordingly, staying in front of barroso with his guard up and soaking up the pressure, then taking him out with a gorgeous right to the solar plexus. amazing atmosphere for that one, and a massively entertaining fight/comeback. the fairytale goes on. hopefully there'll be a unification fight with terry flanagan soon, i think that'd be a competitive fight. it's not a strong division but it's kinda nice to see a guy like crolla get his time in the sun after such an ordeal, dude has tons of heart and has been in some quality fights.

the undercard for canelo khan is currently streaming (legally) here. main card starts soon though. the main event will probably be about 10 or 11 EST.

 

[no country for old wainds]

jesus fucking christ, anyone see that?

 

[no country for old wainds]

misses the part when his head bounces violently off the canvas, but you get the idea. khan was up 4 rounds to 1 when the inevitable happened.

 

[no country for old wainds]

 

[CF87]

Seen this Robbie Lawler fight recently. I think it was a few days ago. Can't remember who the other fighter was, but these dudes beat the shit out of each other. It was great.

 

[no country for old wainds]

probably the rory mcdonald fight, it was killer. you should check out browne vs. arlovski as well, another amazing fight from last year.

 

[no country for old wainds]

with muhammad ali seemingly at death's door, i thought i'd link a couple things:

firstly, this great exchange between ali and howard cosell during the post-fight analysis for the terrell fight. they just don't make 'em like this anymore.

for footage of his brilliance as a boxer, i recommend this short, high quality vid, where he absolutely toys with one of the best heavyweights of his generation. and it mustn't be forgotten that behind the eye-catching style and skill-set lay one of the toughest fighters of all time with a legendary chin and heart.

 

[CF87]

probably the rory mcdonald fight, it was killer. you should check out browne vs. arlovski as well, another amazing fight from last year.

Yeah, that was the fight. I would not be surprised if rory's nose was broken at the end off the fight.

Paige Vanzant is bangin. I'd wrestle her.

 

[SweptbackFlame]

Seen this Robbie Lawler fight recently. I think it was a few days ago. Can't remember who the other fighter was, but these dudes beat the shit out of each other. It was great.

Rory MacDonald?

 

[CF87]

Yeah. Anyone remember the fight where Nick Diaz fucked up BJ Penn real bad, he retired after that fight. .

 

[EspaDa]

Brock Lesnar back to UFC!

 

[Satanstoenail]

for footage of his brilliance as a boxer, i recommend this short, high quality vid, where he absolutely toys with one of the best heavyweights of his generation. and it mustn't be forgotten that behind the eye-catching style and skill-set lay one of the toughest fighters of all time with a legendary chin and heart.

Awesome, cheers for that.