Moderation & Board Issues

AnvilSnake said:
I find that being educated in a formal manner leaves holes in your personal philosophical ideas and thoughts.

I think it depends on the person. We're not all the same. Some take to education, others fight it. What matters to my mind are two things - discipline and raw inclination. A 120-point serf will never have the same thoughts as 150-point aristocrat, and neither will produce anything unless they undertake a rigorous study.

From experience, FYI, YMMV, HIV, again.
 
infoterror said:
I think it depends on the person. We're not all the same. Some take to education, others fight it. What matters to my mind are two things - discipline and raw inclination. A 120-point serf will never have the same thoughts as 150-point aristocrat, and neither will produce anything unless they undertake a rigorous study.

From experience, FYI, YMMV, HIV, again.
I did go on to say it does not apply to everyone. Although I didn't state it, I meant in a general way also. Yes, everyone IS different.

This makes me want to make a thread...:heh:
 
infoterror said:
A note on forums:

Survey topics like "What are your favorite movies?" are always popular but never attract quality. Yes, this may sound fascist, but in my experience, it's true: users naturally make forums into places more like the other places they've been, and in doing so, crush what made those forums unique or worthy.

FYI

Noted. I tend to agree. I don't think it will ever get out of hand, but as that thread had some philosophical discussion, we let it slide. The frequent visitors, I believe is a nice concession to regular posters.

I don't think there is any worry about making this place like any other random off-topic board.
 
infoterror said:
I think it depends on the person. We're not all the same. Some take to education, others fight it. What matters to my mind are two things - discipline and raw inclination. A 120-point serf will never have the same thoughts as 150-point aristocrat, and neither will produce anything unless they undertake a rigorous study.

From experience, FYI, YMMV, HIV, again.


Interesting post. However, when that 120-point serf has the inclination, determination, and fortitude to develop and run a multi-million dollar business.....and the 150-point aristocrat is still in their 'learning phase', waiting for their 'big-break' out in academia.....I'll gladly take the former.

Show me an individual with a 180 IQ, and I'll show you show you someone whom:

1.) Has failed to develop a close and permanent personal relationship with another.

2.) Has difficulty adapting and relating to their children.....if they have indeed sired any offspring.

3.) And whom may have little if any savings or investments for their future endeavors.

4.) Has limited adaptative life and problem-solving skills.

As someone alluded to in another thread here, overly-institutionalized intelligence is the antithesis of primitive common sense. It acts like a cancer.....it eats away at creativity, self expression, and more importantly.....your very survival instincts. There are far too many geniuses of academia walking our streets, living in squalor, frequenting our soup kitchens, and living off of the public teet of society. We need more doers, not teachers and talkers.

I'll take my lofty 138 IQ, and laugh all the way to the bank, thank you very much! :)

I'll explain to anyone here how to get an education in five easy? minutes.....probably more important than an entire year spent in any place of higher learning. And these are in my words.

"The next time you are home, get out of your comfort zone.....put your shoes on.....and go and talk to the neighbor next door. Correct.....the one that you have never introduced yourself to before. Take that leap, and strike up a conversation. Or the next time you are in a grocery, cinema, or restaurant queue.....say hello and keep the conversation going with that new individual. Probe, develop dialogue, initiate conversation, harvest and nurture the simple art of diplomacy and public speaking. The secret is.....99% of the humans on this planet cannot and refuse to do that very simple task. Why? Fear of the unknown? No. Fear of failure? No. Fear of having nothing clever to say? Wrong? The most plausible answer is fear of themselves.....and their poor self-image. Most people truly believe they are 'worthless' deep down inside.....inspite of all the glitter and glamour around them.....which they can drape themselves in and pretend to rationalize their existence. But when it comes to interacting with other members of the human race.....most run the other way and hide."

The morale of the story: Human success in any walk of life comes down to human interaction and interpersonal relationships. Nothing else matters. If you cannot communicate effectively with those that can be influenced, or the influencers, no amount of education or specialization will ever matter. Human and skillful relations. That is the only equalizer.....which few can and will successfully act on.

I'll take my six 'life textbooks'.....and 'menial public school education'.....and take my chances against anyone else who believes that education and intelligence can only be derived from years of classroom training and laboratory research. And I'll challenge those very principles to the core. Because in reality.....and in the end.....we are the ones whom employ those with the degrees and lofty credentials. Touché!

That.....is the true essence of PHILOSOPHY!

skillwithpeople6qn.jpg
confidenceandpower6vp.jpg
shad3ie.jpg
swartz0wn.gif
thinkandgrowrich8kx.jpg
thegreatestsalesmanintheworld6.jpg
 
The Winnipeg Warrior said:
However, when that 120-point serf has the inclination, determination, and fortitude to develop and run a multi-million dollar business.....and the 150-point aristocrat is still in their 'learning phase', waiting for their 'big-break' out in academia.....I'll gladly take the former.

Depends on the long-term consequences of both. Most businesses are destructive and spiritless. Also, your post is an example of a bifurcation fallacy, e.g. it posits two extremist examples which do not conform to reality (most 120-point serfs are busy buying pickup trucks, and most aristocrats active in public service).
 
The Winnipeg Warrior said:
Interesting post. However, when that 120-point serf has the inclination, determination, and fortitude to develop and run a multi-million dollar business.....and the 150-point aristocrat is still in their 'learning phase', waiting for their 'big-break' out in academia.....I'll gladly take the former.

Show me an individual with a 180 IQ, and I'll show you show you someone whom:

1.) Has failed to develop a close and permanent personal relationship with another.

2.) Has difficulty adapting and relating to their children.....if they have indeed sired any offspring.

3.) And whom may have little if any savings or investments for their future endeavors.

4.) Has limited adaptative life and problem-solving skills.

As someone alluded to in another thread here, overly-institutionalized intelligence is the antithesis of primitive common sense. It acts like a cancer.....it eats away at creativity, self expression, and more importantly.....your very survival instincts. There are far too many geniuses of academia walking our streets, living in squalor, frequenting our soup kitchens, and living off of the public teet of society. We need more doers, not teachers and talkers.

I'll take my lofty 138 IQ, and laugh all the way to the bank, thank you very much! :)

I'll explain to anyone here how to get an education in five easy? minutes.....probably more important than an entire year spent in any place of higher learning. And these are in my words.

"The next time you are home, get out of your comfort zone.....put your shoes on.....and go and talk to the neighbor next door. Correct.....the one that you have never introduced yourself to before. Take that leap, and strike up a conversation. Or the next time you are in a grocery, cinema, or restaurant queue.....say hello and keep the conversation going with that new individual. Probe, develop dialogue, initiate conversation, harvest and nurture the simple art of diplomacy and public speaking. The secret is.....99% of the humans on this planet cannot and refuse to do that very simple task. Why? Fear of the unknown? No. Fear of failure? No. Fear of having nothing clever to say? Wrong? The most plausible answer is fear of themselves.....and their poor self-image. Most people truly believe they are 'worthless' deep down inside.....inspite of all the glitter and glamour around them.....which they can drape themselves in and pretend to rationalize their existence. But when it comes to interacting with other members of the human race.....most run the other way and hide."

The morale of the story: Human success in any walk of life comes down to human interaction and interpersonal relationships. Nothing else matters. If you cannot communicate effectively with those that can be influenced, or the influencers, no amount of education or specialization will ever matter. Human and skillful relations. That is the only equalizer.....which few can and will successfully act on.

I'll take my six 'life textbooks'.....and 'menial public school education'.....and take my chances against anyone else who believes that education and intelligence can only be derived from years of classroom training and laboratory research. And I'll challenge those very principles to the core. Because in reality.....and in the end.....we are the ones whom employ those with the degrees and lofty credentials. Touché!

That.....is the true essence of PHILOSOPHY!

skillwithpeople6qn.jpg
confidenceandpower6vp.jpg
shad3ie.jpg
swartz0wn.gif
thinkandgrowrich8kx.jpg
thegreatestsalesmanintheworld6.jpg

I agree with your criticism about institutionalized intelligence and interpersonal success, but, I dont see how someone opening their own business or working their way up to executive material in some corporation is of any more value to the world than a academic teaching and researching, or even a bum with a grad degree. The intelligent bum, is a sign to the world, of the fate of the intelligent--of those who refuse to conform to this system.

Your thesis is predicated on the notion that money is the sole aim of life, and ones intelligence must be sacrificed at its altar. I for one would rather die a poor penniless bum, who protested against this form of society, than sacrifice my life to the notion of material wealth.

And those books make me laugh. Yes, I am reminded of Saul Bellow's excellent novel Seize the Day upon your listing of such books. The persons who read such books are generally middle class, naive, ambitious--well the average American.
 
speed said:
The persons who read such books are generally middle class, naive, ambitious--well the average American.

The very people our great republic is designed to help prosper.
 
Demiurge said:
I need to throw out my highbrow literature and begin reading self-help books, which will get me "thinking big" and "growing rich." Must...become...corporate...drone... :lol:

Senior year in high school they wasted tax payer money by bringing in these motivational speakers. One handed out his book on how to network. :rolleyes:
 
The Winnipeg Warrior said:
Unfortunately, I can name far too many good people that have strong academic credentials from prominent institutions.....that will never achieve any semblance of financial or personal success. Theoretical understanding does not equal practical experience. Simply stated, you may be able to identify and define all the elements and components of a light bulb. But when the time came, would you have the common sense to turn off the power and replace that very bulb? Of course, this is just a generalization. But many highly educated people would even have challenges understanding the very point I'm trying to make right now.

But if the shoe fits.....
this is a perfect explination of why i feel like i belong here
i'm the guy that knows how to CHANGE a light bulb as opposed to the guy that knows how to MAKE a lightbulb
i know how things work in the real world and i know how to interact with the relatively stupid real world people as opposed to the guy that's actually read philosophy books
 
RookParliament said:
Care to expound further on that?

Yes.

The American republic was originally designed to be ruled by NW European males over age 30 who were landholders and already participating in local society.

The founders would've been horrified at the idea of the rabble taking over, something proven correct when the events of the French Revolution were borne out and the whole thing collapsed into a horror of murder, sodomy, failure and disorganization.
 
LORD_RED_DRAGON said:
this is a perfect explination of why i feel like i belong here
i'm the guy that knows how to CHANGE a light bulb as opposed to the guy that knows how to MAKE a lightbulb
i know how things work in the real world and i know how to interact with the relatively stupid real world people as opposed to the guy that's actually read philosophy books
when you take a cab to the grocery store, can you hold a conversation with the cab driver??? or hold a conversation with the cashier???
sadly, for a great many of you the answer is obviously no
(with the obvious exception of those that type on the nevermore board)
when i go offline i successfully interact with the people that are too stupid to understand anything posted on this forum
and i feel pride in having retaining a skill that some of you never had to begin with
 
Well that is a good skill to have and you're lucky to have the genes for it LRD. My Finnish genes give a different character.

"The Culture of Finland is inherently hard to define. However, there are some general characteristics often associated with Finnish society and every day culture. Finns are generally a reserved people, like other Nordic peoples in Norway or Sweden. Traditionally, Finns enjoy peace and nature, though the modern, urban lifestyle is popular with many.

A sense of melancholy and depression is sometimes associated with the Finns. People in Finland are reserved when meeting strangers and sometimes take a long time to become familiar with others but, as a result, relationships are deep and lasting. Alcohol is considered to be an effective method of lowering these inhibitions. Still, Finns tend to be less gregarious and inclined to small talk than most of their European peers." From Wikepedia
 
9. The two psychological tendencies that underlie modern leftism we call "feelings of inferiority" and "oversocialization." Feelings of inferiority are characteristic of modern leftism as a whole, while oversocialization is characteristic only of a certain segment of modern leftism; but this segment is highly influential.

24. Psychologists use the term "socialization" to designate the process by which children are trained to think and act as society demands. A person is said to be well socialized if he believes in and obeys the moral code of his society and fits in well as a functioning part of that society. It may seem senseless to say that many leftists are over-socialized, since the leftist is perceived as a rebel. Nevertheless, the position can be defended. Many leftists are not such rebels as they seem.

25. The moral code of our society is so demanding that no one can think, feel and act in a completely moral way. For example, we are not supposed to hate anyone, yet almost everyone hates somebody at some time or other, whether he admits it to himself or not. Some people are so highly socialized that the attempt to think, feel and act morally imposes a severe burden on them. In order to avoid feelings of guilt, they continually have to deceive themselves about their own motives and find moral explanations for feelings and actions that in reality have a non-moral origin. We use the term "oversocialized" to describe such people. [2]

26. Oversocialization can lead to low self-esteem, a sense of powerlessness, defeatism, guilt, etc. One of the most important means by which our society socializes children is by making them feel ashamed of behavior or speech that is contrary to society's expectations. If this is overdone, or if a particular child is especially susceptible to such feelings, he ends by feeling ashamed of HIMSELF. Moreover the thought and the behavior of the oversocialized person are more restricted by society's expectations than are those of the lightly socialized person. The majority of people engage in a significant amount of naughty behavior. They lie, they commit petty thefts, they break traffic laws, they goof off at work, they hate someone, they say spiteful things or they use some underhanded trick to get ahead of the other guy. The oversocialized person cannot do these things, or if he does do them he generates in himself a sense of shame and self-hatred. The oversocialized person cannot even experience, without guilt, thoughts or feelings that are contrary to the accepted morality; he cannot think "unclean" thoughts. And socialization is not just a matter of morality; we are socialized to confirm to many norms of behavior that do not fall under the heading of morality. Thus the oversocialized person is kept on a psychological leash and spends his life running on rails that society has laid down for him. In many oversocialized people this results in a sense of constraint and powerlessness that can be a severe hardship. We suggest that oversocialization is among the more serious cruelties that human beings inflict on one another.

27. We argue that a very important and influential segment of the modern left is oversocialized and that their oversocialization is of great importance in determining the direction of modern leftism. Leftists of the oversocialized type tend to be intellectuals or members of the upper-middle class. Notice that university intellectuals [3] constitute the most highly socialized segment of our society and also the most left-wing segment.

28. The leftist of the oversocialized type tries to get off his psychological leash and assert his autonomy by rebelling. But usually he is not strong enough to rebel against the most basic values of society. Generally speaking, the goals of today's leftists are NOT in conflict with the accepted morality. On the contrary, the left takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as its own, and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle. Examples: racial equality, equality of the sexes, helping poor people, peace as opposed to war, nonviolence generally, freedom of expression, kindness to animals. More fundamentally, the duty of the individual to serve society and the duty of society to take care of the individual. All these have been deeply rooted values of our society (or at least of its middle and upper classes [4] for a long time. These values are explicitly or implicitly expressed or presupposed in most of the material presented to us by the mainstream communications media and the educational system. Leftists, especially those of the oversocialized type, usually do not rebel against these principles but justify their hostility to society by claiming (with some degree of truth) that society is not living up to these principles.

29. Here is an illustration of the way in which the oversocialized leftist shows his real attachment to the conventional attitudes of our society while pretending to be in rebellion against it. Many leftists push for affirmative action, for moving black people into high-prestige jobs, for improved education in black schools and more money for such schools; the way of life of the black "underclass" they regard as a social disgrace. They want to integrate the black man into the system, make him a business executive, a lawyer, a scientist just like upper-middle-class white people. The leftists will reply that the last thing they want is to make the black man into a copy of the white man; instead, they want to preserve African American culture. But in what does this preservation of African American culture consist? It can hardly consist in anything more than eating black-style food, listening to black-style music, wearing black-style clothing and going to a black-style church or mosque. In other words, it can express itself only in superficial matters. In all ESSENTIAL respects more leftists of the oversocialized type want to make the black man conform to white, middle-class ideals. They want to make him study technical subjects, become an executive or a scientist, spend his life climbing the status ladder to prove that black people are as good as white. They want to make black fathers "responsible." they want black gangs to become nonviolent, etc. But these are exactly the values of the industrial-technological system. The system couldn't care less what kind of music a man listens to, what kind of clothes he wears or what religion he believes in as long as he studies in school, holds a respectable job, climbs the status ladder, is a "responsible" parent, is nonviolent and so forth. In effect, however much he may deny it, the oversocialized leftist wants to integrate the black man into the system and make him adopt its values.

http://www.emf.net/~estephen/manifesto/unabe2.html

Socialization, like technology, must be used carefully -- and possibly, sparingly.
 
That was really something fascinating Infoterror. That article makes so many interesting and debatable points it should be in a thread of its own. It is not really relevant so much to what LRD was saying though, because he was talking more about being sociable than socialised. But it is a related matter and worth discussing.
 
Norsemaiden said:
It is not really relevant so much to what LRD was saying though, because he was talking more about being sociable than socialised. But it is a related matter and worth discussing.

Good point; its tangential relevance is that when one ignores truth in favor of a sociable response, one has become oversocialized.
 
Norsemaiden said:
That was really something fascinating Infoterror. That article makes so many interesting and debatable points it should be in a thread of its own. It is not really relevant so much to what LRD was saying though, because he was talking more about being sociable than socialised. But it is a related matter and worth discussing.
i still think that my posts were valid though because the people that post in chat/pop culture forums really do consider themselves as being superior to what they might refer to as "bookworm" type people