Music and violence

[Black Core]

This is a speech by Marilyn Manson in Times Square, New York City. It's a little lengthy at 12:03. But it's worth it.

YouTube - Marilyn Manson Speech

This is a really interesting speech as it really shows what's going on with ppl today.
Violence itself isn't that bad but it should only be used if there's no other solution. People these days don't talk anymore and that's the main problem of everyday. One rather talks to someone else about a problem than with the person who he has the problem with, that results in not understanding why and talking behind someone's back who gets mad about that and starts a fight instead of going to that person and asking why.

The story about the kid being ran over really got me just because Marilyn is so right about that, he says the exact same thing as me. You can't be who you want to be anymore in this society because you get laughed at, spit on and beaten and that results in other problems for the victim, he starts drinking, doing drugs, cutting himself or goes into crime for the purpose of feeling in control of what he does or just to forget or look tough. Maybe he'll get respect from certain people but most of the times the situation just gets worse and it escalates.

Now they blame artists like Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Dimmu Borgir, etc. to promote violence. It's not true, they just bring as entertainement what is on the television every day. But just as pure entertainement, not as promotion but that's something that people don't understand because they look "evil", they look like they cause trouble. And because some popular ppl think that, everyone thinks that because no one wants to go up against those popular ppl in fear of rejection and being spit on.

To me everyone who doesn't accept that everyone looks diffrent, feels diffrent, thinks diffrent and actually is diffrent is a lower life-form who doesn't deserve any kind of respect from anyone. Also the ppl who follow these aren't worth shit. The true decent human beings are those who are called "emo" or "goth" or "prep" or anything else, because they understand that they are diffrent and act accordingly and the thanx they get is spit in their face.

Learn to accept other ppl around you and if you have a problem, talk with them instead of laughing or spitting at them, understand why before you act.

 

[Seditious]

To me everyone who doesn't accept that everyone looks diffrent, feels diffrent, thinks diffrent and actually is diffrent is a lower life-form who doesn't deserve any kind of respect from anyone.

nothing like a little irony to start the day.

thanks for that

 

[Black Core]

I wasn't being ironic

 

[OldScratch]

I wasn't being ironic

Not intentionally. Still...

 

[Black Core]

why do you think that?

 

[derbeder]

because what you say in that sentence implies that someone who thinks something different from you (in this case, someone who thinks that that people are not different in some of the ways you mention) is somehow unworthy. but you seem to be also saying that people who think some different things from other people (including you, i assume) are not unworthy solely on that account.

 

[Black Core]

I had to read that like 3 times before I could make anything of it.

I'm talking about the ones who laugh at other ppl because those ppl are diffrent, I don't do that, so what I said doesn't include me.
I don't know how I can put it more clear than that

 

[Seditious]

I had to read that like 3 times before I could make anything of it.

I'm talking about the ones who laugh at other ppl because those ppl are diffrent, I don't do that, so what I said doesn't include me.
I don't know how I can put it more clear than that

"everyone who doesn't accept that everyone looks diffrent, feels diffrent, thinks diffrent and actually is diffrent is a lower life-form"

you're not accepting people who look/feel/think differently, you're considering them lower lifeforms, so you deserve to regard yourself, by your own standards, as a lower lifeform

Why you're now explicating that 'laughing' at others is bad, as if condemning others as subhuman isn't, at the very least, equally bad, I don't know, because still it seems you are most deserving of the condemnation you wish to give.

 

[Black Core]

yes, I know it sounds a bit hypocrite and I don't know if I'm able to justify this except for that fact that I've had personal encounters with ppl like that.

If they would just stay away from and shut up about other ppl who are diffrent, there wouldn't be a problem and I, myself don't laugh at them or spit in their face, beat them up, etc. unless they do something to me but they react to diffrent ppl who are just walking in the same street as them and not doing anything wrong. They pic on them for the way they look.

Get what I'm saying?

 

[OldScratch]

Where are you trying to go with this thread? What philosophical/political/intellectual observation or point are you trying to make?
That may help folks respond to this.

Beyond that, to be honest, I would seriously recommend developing a thicker skin, if you are going to affect an appearance that doesn't comport with the "mainstream." Whether anyone likes it or not, there will always be social "norms" and any departure therefrom will always raise the ire of some.

 

[Black Core]

Violence itself isn't that bad but it should only be used if there's no other solution. People these days don't talk anymore and that's the main problem of everyday. One rather talks to someone else about a problem than with the person who he has the problem with, that results in not understanding why and talking behind someone's back who gets mad about that and starts a fight instead of going to that person and asking why.

Now they blame artists like Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Dimmu Borgir, etc. to promote violence. It's not true, they just bring as entertainement what is on the television every day. But just as pure entertainement, not as promotion but that's something that people don't understand because they look "evil", they look like they cause trouble. And because some popular ppl think that, everyone thinks that because no one wants to go up against those popular ppl in fear of rejection and being spit on.

this is where I wanted to go but since everyone is commenting on something I thought I'd reply on that too

as for that ticher skin: If I don't go with the mainstream, that's too bad, I am who I am and most ppl are just part of a herde, I highly respect own personality, own values and own everything actually, that's why I wear what I like and act the way I like. If someone has a problem with that, they should talk to me about it instead of making fun of it.

 

[Seditious]

Where are you trying to go with this thread? What philosophical/political/intellectual observation or point are you trying to make?
That may help folks respond to this.

Beyond that, to be honest, I would seriously recommend developing a thicker skin, if you are going to affect an appearance that doesn't comport with the "mainstream." Whether anyone likes it or not, there will always be social "norms" and any departure therefrom will always raise the ire of some.

word. if you like being the person you are, then learn to put aside other peoples opinions of you. You choose what you focus on and what you let bother you.

 

[Seditious]

this is where I wanted to go but since everyone is commenting on something I thought I'd reply on that too

as for that ticher skin: If I don't go with the mainstream, that's too bad, I am who I am and most ppl are just part of a herde, I highly respect own personality, own values and own everything actually, that's why I wear what I like and act the way I like. If someone has a problem with that, they should talk to me about it instead of making fun of it.

but what is there to talk about? should they talk about you joining the herd you don't like any more than you should talk to them about being more individualistic when the herd suits them fine? That's like getting Theists to convince each other to join the other person's faith.

if someone laughs about something you think you'd have to be a fool to laugh at then maybe you just need to smile at their ignorance rather than thinking they need to change something, as we smile as children and their mindless games. and since what they're doing is obviously making them happy it's not even in their interest to care what you have to say. so if you learn not to be bothered by opinions that don't deserve your time then you'll both walk away happier (them entertained by uniqueness, you entertained by idiocy). We don't want to lose freedom of opinion, and, as Scratch said, we'll never live in a world without norms, so why not just find a way where everybody wins such as the above?

 

[ThePhilosopher]

Like many here have said, social norms have existed for about as long as humanity itself. Those norms certainly apply to a person's physical appearance, so if you choose to break the norm, be ready to be criticized.

With that said though, I really think that a lot of the themes discussed in the speech (and much more so in what the original poster mentions) are just exaggerated and cliche in most instances. During most of my high school years, I was not an athlete, I wore lots of metal band shirts, and my preferences and opinions were pretty well known. With all that said, nobody really gave me (or most people I observed) any problems because of this. It really is all in how you conduct yourself. Many youths unfortunately choose to be "different" for it's own sake and to just call attention to themselves. They don't seem to understand that, even in their rebellion from the "evil" jock/popular crowd, they are also conforming to their own group that condones exclusion of anyone who looks and acts different from them. It's the same exact thing but only perhaps on a smaller scale.

I thought the speech was well thought-out and makes some good points about the relationship between music influencing violent behavior, which of course is utter rubbish in almost every way imaginable. But it should be obvious that those who conform to social norms and end up participating in criminal behavior will be more likely to be let off easier. This is not necessarily "right," but it has, at least in my view, always been a major trait of humanity.

So to the original poster, grow up. You sound like you could be writing the lyrics to the next Korn album.

 

[Black Core]

^I live here Belgium, you live in the USA, there's large diffrence between how ppl react to certain ideas so it could be that you aren't spit at as much as I am.
Also as the perception of this can be diffrent from person to person so you might not make a big deal of it (maybe because what I said in the previous line), I do unfortunatly, can't do much about that, I just stated my personal view.

but what is there to talk about? should they talk about you joining the herd you don't like any more than you should talk to them about being more individualistic when the herd suits them fine? That's like getting Theists to convince each other to join the other person's faith.

if someone laughs about something you think you'd have to be a fool to laugh at then maybe you just need to smile at their ignorance rather than thinking they need to change something, as we smile as children and their mindless games. and since what they're doing is obviously making them happy it's not even in their interest to care what you have to say. so if you learn not to be bothered by opinions that don't deserve your time then you'll both walk away happier (them entertained by uniqueness, you entertained by idiocy). We don't want to lose freedom of opinion, and, as Scratch said, we'll never live in a world without norms, so why not just find a way where everybody wins such as the above?

no, no, no, like the title says, music and violence, I'll formulate a few questions:
1. Do you think artists promote violence?
2. Do you think the life-style (mostly the way they dress to show they like some form of music) of ppl resorts in violence?
3. Do ppl who listen to diffrent forms of music clash?

These are the questions that I gave my personal opinion about in my posts and you all just reacted to that.


I understand what you are trying to say there and I do try but when it's happening like 10 times an hour, day in day out (in my class for instance) it gets annoying, you can't keep smiling about it. Eventually you get fed up with it.

 

[Seditious]

Also as the perception of this can be diffrent from person to person so you might not make a big deal of it, I do unfortunatly, can't do much about that, I just stated my personal view.

I think what people here are trying to emphasize is that you're not a victim, there is much you can do, especially since only you can control your thoughts

1. Do you think artists promote violence?
2. Do you think the life-style (mostly the way they dress to show they like some form of music) of ppl resorts in violence?

I think if someone is weak-minded or already looking for an excuse to be violent then an artist or a friend is quite capable of being all the motivation they need to do what they already wanted to do.

I understand what you are trying to say there and I do try but when it's happening like 10 times an hour, day in day out (in my class for instance) it gets annoying, you can't keep smiling about it. Eventually you get fed up with it.

nothing worth doing is easy. But I can tell you one thing, it's easier to control your own emotions than the actions of hundreds of other people.

 

[Black Core]

I think what people here are trying to emphasize is that you're not a victim, there is much you can do, especially since only you can control your thoughts

There are 3 parties in a conflict like the one I'm talking about: the accusor AKA troublemaker, the victim and the ones who do nothing. I know I am not someone who does nothing and now you are saying that I'm not a victim so I must be the troublemaker?

I think if someone is weak-minded or already looking for an excuse to be violent then an artist or a friend is quite capable of being all the motivation they need to do what they already wanted to do.

true, so you're saying, it's not the music

nothing worth doing is easy. But I can tell you one thing, it's easier to control your own emotions than the actions of hundreds of other people.

also true but the fact remains that it becomes annoying, I'm not gonna change who I am for them.

 

[Majesty]

There are 3 parties in a conflict like the one I'm talking about: the accusor AKA troublemaker, the victim and the ones who do nothing. I know I am not someone who does nothing and now you are saying that I'm not a victim so I must be the troublemaker?



true, so you're saying, it's not the music



also true but the fact remains that it becomes annoying, I'm not gonna change who I am for them.

Well... changing the part of you that actually cares that they are bothering you might be a good idea.
Unless this bothering is physical in which case you could either just solve it by force or by involving authority.

 

[Black Core]

it used to be physical and I did solve that by force but it went on with words and laughter. Like I said: when it's happening like 10 times an hour, day in day out (in my class for instance) it gets annoying, you can't keep not caring about it

 

[ThePhilosopher]

The United States is, at the high school level, probably the most divided between terms of "jocks/popular kids" and "weird people" compared to everywhere else. I was always under the impression (based on what people from those countries have said) that Europe put far less emphasis on high school/college competition like that. Because of that, I find it hard to believe that what you're putting up with has anything to do with culture or geography.