Music as an environment vs music as melody

[Hyperborean Exile]

In this case I would agree, to the most part. There are still examples where the lines are blurred between your two categories.

Of course there are. Reality isn't a binary universe; there are a lot of bent 1s and straight 0s.

Mostly what you see though, are occasional artists who compose structurally but also utilize intensely rhythmic technique (Slayer) and artists like Opeth who compose songs that are essentially popular music both in form and content, but ape more advanced forms through reduced rhythmic emphasis and longer songs.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I wouldn't say that atmospheric music is more advanced than melodic music. There is a certain skill involved in creating each.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

For the most part i would agree with what you are saying, but there's more to it than that. What i mean for example is you can take a "normal" song, and if you put it through filters so it sounds like it is comming from an old radio 5 feet to your left, it no longer becomes "just" a melodic, easily digested song.

Not true. The fundamental nature of the song itself is unchanged. What you describe is the defective thinking of many listeners; they lack the ability to move below surface presentation and actually experience and understand a song at the level at which it exists. This is the same idiotic impulse that leads many to dismiss metal as "noise," and, at the opposite end of the scale, leads to the halfwits who think that they can make three-chord bar rock into "black metal" by screeching out some vocals and recording it on a Talkboy.

A good listener is able to experience music on its own terms, rather than exclusively in the context in which she hears it.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

I wouldn't say that atmospheric music is more advanced than melodic music. There is a certain skill involved in creating each.

"Atmospheric" music is melodic music. Popular music is fundamentally defined by rhythm, and is less advanced because it requires lower order cognitive processes.

 

[Kenneth R.]

so, production regardless, comprehend the nature of the song at hand? I listen that way to some extent, I am not so particular about production unless it is absolutely awful, in which case i will remix it myself in cubase.

about Atmospheric vs Popular: Are you discussing the listener or the artist?

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

so, production regardless, comprehend the nature of the song at hand? I listen that way to some extent, I am not so particular about production unless it is absolutely awful, in which case i will remix it myself in cubase.

Production is a tactical choice. As with any choice, some are better than others, but this is specific to a given work and doesn't alter its fundamental nature.

about Atmospheric vs Popular: Are you discussing the listener or the artist?

Broadly, I'm referring to the music itself, which, being shared between artist and audience, will bring both into play from time to time.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I ask because, from my point of view, the artist can create complexity in both forms, although I would agree that in general what is currently "popular" lacks that skill. From a listener's point of view, definitely atmospheric music is less accessible and requires a deeper listening experience/thought

 

[Manbient]

Not true. The fundamental nature of the song itself is unchanged. What you describe is the defective thinking of many listeners; they lack the ability to move below surface presentation and actually experience and understand a song at the level at which it exists. This is the same idiotic impulse that leads many to dismiss metal as "noise," and, at the opposite end of the scale, leads to the halfwits who think that they can make three-chord bar rock into "black metal" by screeching out some vocals and recording it on a Talkboy.

A good listener is able to experience music on its own terms, rather than exclusively in the context in which she hears it.

You don't understand the point of the thread then.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Kenneth,

Successfully composing structuralist music is far more demanding of the artist as well, because it requires the ability to think conceptually and holistically, rather than in fragments of thought and idea.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

You don't understand the point of the thread then.

The point of the thread appears to be bragging about your ability to spend a lot of money accomplishing what most people can do with a decent set of headphones and a light switch.

The real problem is that you miss the point of complex music entirely.

 

[Kenneth R.]

but in creating such verse/chorus/verse music, one must (if intending to come up with something non shitty) string these together in the right way, demanding a perspective of the song-as-a-whole comprised of individual parts. the ability to do this, while simultaneously creating complex ideas at the global and local levels, requires as high a demand i think, as it does to conceptually create a soundscape. you are given less space in which to convey your point, so it must be more concise, and yet retain the full message.

 

[Tubbs]

There's no flame war, but this thread is starting to kinda suck anyway...

- the TMSFGJAEUPGWMSFFWELCFBTPMN

 

[Manbient]

The point of the thread appears to be bragging about your ability to spend a lot of money accomplishing what most people can do with a decent set of headphones and a light switch.

Further proof you don't understand. If it makes you feel better, i will delete any description of what equipment i use, even though i think it's an important part of my point. Congratulations on not considering anyone else's input but your own and never even considering reshaping your thoughts. You are not an encyclopedia.

 

[CAIRATH]

Dude, stop deleting stuff from your post just because a bunch of wankers have nothing better to do than complain about everything. I thought this thread had potential, unfortunately it seems pretty much impossible to have a decent thread on this forum.

Oh well.

I still wouldn't mind hearing some recommendations of good atmospheric/ambient music that I might not have heard yet. If anyone has some.

 

[Manbient]

Dude, stop deleting stuff from your post just because a bunch of wankers have nothing better to do than complain about everything. I thought this thread had potential, unfortunately it seems pretty much impossible to have a decent thread on this forum.

Oh well.

I still wouldn't mind hearing some recommendations of good atmospheric/ambient music that I might not have heard yet. If anyone has some.

I was going to reply to your post, but somehow i forgot hehe. You're almost the only person i'd like to discuss this with anyway, since you actually seem to be on the same page as me somewhat. Do you use AIM or MSN? i'd rather talk to you there.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

but in creating such verse/chorus/verse music, one must (if intending to come up with something non shitty) string these together in the right way, demanding a perspective of the song-as-a-whole comprised of individual parts.

Not really. If the songs themselves are kept relatively compact and the variation between parts is not particularly great (which tends to happen with most artists of this sort), it takes no particular skill to keep songs coherent. The seams only start to show with artists like Opeth, who, as I said, attempt to make popular music that apes more advanced forms. As songs become longer and are constructed of more disparate subunits, the easy literacy of the verse/chorus format is strained to the breaking point, and what lurches forth is the musical equivalent of Frankenstein's monster, a whole bunch of spare parts strung together in the image of a "song." None of this demands any sort of abstract strategic thinking on the part of the artist, just the ability to compose fragments and weld together a few that aren't wholly incompatible.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

Further proof you don't understand. If it makes you feel better, i will delete any description of what equipment i use, even though i think it's an important part of my point. Congratulations on not considering anyone else's input but your own and never even considering reshaping your thoughts. You are not an encyclopedia.

The argument you advanced is a ludicrous one: "I create a different song by listening to it over better speakers, and also, music is better if it's made from car noises." The whole analysis is pathetically superficial; you're concerned with how music is heard rather than with its actual content. This is a waste of time, in my view, but there's no sense in fucking detonating just because I disagree.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I'm simply stating that to expertly weld those parts together takes some compositional skill beyond that required for a generic top40 track. that creating a piece of music where each "part" is significant individually, and yet the entire piece is made of these seperate pieces strung together seemlessly. You placed Classical music in category 1, but it could easily fit in both.

I think what Mumble is getting at is denying 4 senses amplifies the 5th.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

I'm simply stating that to expertly weld those parts together takes some compositional skill beyond that required for a generic top40 track.

Agreed. Within any field, you're going to have a hierarchy of value. But there's also a hierarchy between different strata of action. A brilliant programmer developing revolutionary technology is far beyond a guy who makes his living debugging Windows, but they're both way above the garbage man too.

 

[CAIRATH]

I was going to reply to your post, but somehow i forgot hehe. You're almost the only person i'd like to discuss this with anyway, since you actually seem to be on the same page as me somewhat. Do you use AIM or MSN? i'd rather talk to you there.

Not a fan of instant messengers (so I don't have or use any), but I PMed you my e-mail address.