Music as an environment vs music as melody

[Liquid Diamonds]

By the same token, synthesizers, samplers and sequencers cannot adequately reproduce organic instruments in the hands of professionals either

May I butt in, and say that I agree with this statement 100%.

At least, for the moment... who knows what's to come in the future?
But it isn't likely that perfect reproduction of these things will ever really be achieved.

 

[Manbient]

At that point though, you've moved entirely out of the realm of music (and conceptual art generally), and into the realm of purely representation (which is largely a field for technicians rather than artists). You record the sound of waves and then play it back over the sound equipment. Demanding technically, yes, but artistically? It doesn't take much. It's far more difficult to take an orchestra (or guitar, drums, bass and keyboards) and paint a metal picture with sound, and far more rewarding for the listener.

So you don't think there are applications of this idea to actual "music"? I think you are ignoring a rather large amount of potential this could have.

I beg to differ about it not being artistic. Take one artist who does take it father than merely having a "single" sound (waves, for example) and creates really interesting sound collages: Birchville Cat Motel. There is very little "musical" about what he does, but it's still quite a moving experience for many people, something nearly impossible to explain.

I'm honestly not even sure what your point is, you seem to be the kind of person who enjoys arguing more than actually learning something from conversations with others. What i mean is, could you just tell us all what you are getting at?

 

[Liquid Diamonds]

It's called 'musique concrete'. You know, where the artist takes samples of real-life sounds and arranges them so as to be listened to in an interesting fashion? It's a concept that's been around for decades....

It IS music.

 

[Tubbs]

I'm honestly not even sure what your point is, you seem to be the kind of person who enjoys arguing more than actually learning something from conversations with others. What i mean is, could you just tell us all what you are getting at?

Let me put it to you in the simplest way:

HE. IS. A. TROLL.

HE. IS. LAETH. MACLAURIE.

HIS INTENT IS TO ANNOY THE HELL OUT OF PEOPLE.

People still don't realize it yet...

- the TMSFGJAEUPGWMSFFWELCFBTPMN

 

[Manbient]

It's called 'musique concrete'. You know, where the artist takes samples of real-life sounds and arranges them so as to be listened to in an interesting fashion? It's a concept that's been around for decades....

It IS music.

i'd agree. Even though i think it is a bit silly to argue over whether something fits nicely into a definition or not. It's as irrelevant as arguing over genres.

 

[Kenneth R.]

It's far more difficult to take an orchestra and paint a metal picture .

i know this is a typo, but that gave me an awesome visual image.

 

[Manbient]

i know this is a typo, but that gave me an awesome visual image.

Not only a typo, but a blatant red herring at that

 

[Ermz]

By the same token, synthesizers, samplers and sequencers cannot adequately reproduce organic instruments in the hands of professionals either, nor a digital environment the sound quality of an orchestra in a dedicated concert hall, so it's a wash. But the idea that conceptual music hasn't been explored is absurd.

It depends what your definition of 'adequate' is. The Vienna Symphony Orchestra pack amongst many others are doing a fantastic job of presenting the tonal qualities and nuances of an orchestra in a variety of concert halls in a sampler/sequencer package.

Regardless, that's tangential. The point here is that the synthesizers, samplers and sequencers aren't TRYING to replicate an orchestra. The aim is for them to create these soundscapes, applying all the versatile functions that the digital medium brings.

The more I read your posts, the more I see that you've totally misunderstood the entire point of this thread. We're not even reffering to conventional 'music' per-se, so the idea of an orchestra being applicable in any sense to this discussion is pretty out there.

 

[affinityband]

I love thost VST instruments. Although takes up a shit load of memory. But really fun to play with. very organic sounds. But it should e fucking good for the £3000 price tag......If you want to purchase it legally

 

[Braighs]

i think that this was the point of the thread.

i listened to a soundscape cd of a thunderstorm once on a wicked bose sound system. it was fucking sweet....very real....i later listened to the same thing on a tiny cd/alarm clock thing. there were frequencies that this thing just wouldn't put out. it was very obvious that it was not a real thunderstorm.

I was once hiking through the Guadalupe mountains at night during a thunder storm. You can't get more real than that. And the feeling of misery that I had during that cold rainy night waiting for the sun to rise will always remain a part of me.

Quite frankly, reading this thread is making me . Its just people showing off big words and proveing nothing. What a waste of time.

Don't take offence to this. I am indeed envious of the ritual room. But digital music will never surpass acoustic music imo. And that's just mo.

 

[JoeVice]

I was once hiking through the Guadalupe mountains at night during a thunder storm. You can't get more real than that. And the feeling of misery that I had during that cold rainy night waiting for the sun to rise will always remain a part of me.

when compared to a thunderstorm cd, its not a real as the cd. ha!

 

[Ermz]

But that's the idea. You're trying to synthesize all these scenarios and emotions that you may not have access to otherwise.

This isn't about being a pretentious wanker at all... it's about trying to appreciate music and environment on perhaps another level than just straight melody/rhythm.

I agree when it comes to 'music' music, it's fantastic to hear a chamber orchestra in a cathedral or whatever, but that's not the idea of this.

 

[Manbient]

I was once hiking through the Guadalupe mountains at night during a thunder storm. You can't get more real than that. And the feeling of misery that I had during that cold rainy night waiting for the sun to rise will always remain a part of me.

Don't take offence to this. I am indeed envious of the ritual room. But digital music will never surpass acoustic music imo. And that's just mo.

if you enjoy the misery, then cool and of course there will always be limitations. But if you want to experience something in a way without having to go there and experience the negatives as well, experiencing the "sound" of it can be really engaging as well.

Another thing as well isn't so much the simulation of an exact identifiable "place", but with something like this it's possible to create something new. Something the REAL world could never do, something the REAL world could never surpass. Some of the limits of reality become removed in this way. You could define, through sound, a place with physically impossible contrasts in the real world, but work to "trick" the ear. In fact, that is where i think the greatest potential lies. It's all in how you look at it i suppose.

 

[Braighs]

but with something like this it's possible to create something new.

good point. I just see much of it as a kind of sterilization. For example, the Japanese have invented this "suit" which simulates sex. weird. Technology has great potential, but sometimes we need to get back to nature. Bands like Opeth combine the two flawlessly.

And I don't enjoy misery. :Spin: It was a growth experience.

 

[BurningSky]

Just so i get this point of this straight: are you basically saying that synthesized sounds can create new atmospheres and psychosomatic reactions? Not necessarily by recreating acoustic sounds but by creating new textures and such?

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

So you don't think there are applications of this idea to actual "music"? I think you are ignoring a rather large amount of potential this could have.

Certainly, but once you engage in collage, you're back to making conventional (conceptual) music with unconventional methods, inasmuch as it isn't going to be directly representational (putting the listener in a "space" as you put it). It has the advantage of freshness, but it is of fairly limited use overall, due to the limits of intentionality. Organic instrumental music is infinitely malleable and easily manipulated by the artist. Sampling is quite a bit less flexible in that an artist can only play with pre-existing sounds electronically. It's not inherently different from "found object" art, which started as a fairly interesting if terribly gimmicky approach to visual art, and quickly became a goofy, played out stunt.

 

[Manbient]

Just so i get this point of this straight: are you basically saying that synthesized sounds can create new atmospheres and psychosomatic reactions? Not necessarily by recreating acoustic sounds but by creating new textures and such?

It's certainly an idea, and i'm sure there are people out there trying to do exactly that. Actually, i know there are because i've been looking for that for a long while and i have found some artists on the brink of it. I still think though the best is yet to come, and technology is still creating too many limits to the idea to have it fully realized.

 

[MetalManCPA]

In regards to exploring artists/songs (if that's what they're called) that are ambient and not ryhtmatic, for that I'd say it's something I haven't gone out searching for. I've heard such artistic entries, but are obviously not memorable enough for me to remember.

there are two distinct "kinds" of music. Music made from melody, designed to make you respond more to what notes are being played and the actual "progressions" of the chords, and music designed on simply a more cerebral, intrinsically psychological level. "Music" designed not on any melodic content, nor so much on a rhythmic content, but more on the atonal "colouration" of sounds to simulate environments; music made because the sound of a "bird" for example has associated thoughts and visualizations to go along with it. Or the sound of a train, jackhammer, rain, blowing wind, etc.

What is a "kind" of music? Music, as an artform, can take on many faces, yet it's still one distinct thing - music. An individuals interpretation of all art, including music, is entirely subjective. What I "hear" in a musical piece is totally different to the next person. Non-melodic/rythmatic music equates to an artist tossing 10 colors of paint (abstarct art) as opposed to painting a scene with a paintbrush. But, is a painting of a mountain any more/less art than a splash or colors? It's the same with music.

You have individually created an environment, and have searched out a style of music that paints a certain landscape in your mind that started as a blank slate. Well, I get the exact same thing listening to Ghost of Perdition or The Drapery Falls, for instance. My imagination is an open book, not guided by a certain style of music. I get totally lost in almost any music if I so desire. I can listen to one song, and if I heard it 20 times, I could have a multitude of dirrent feelings depending on my surroundings. When I'm in a car, my concentration on driving detracts from my concentration on the music, thus, it's a more surface listening experience. If I lay in bed in the dark with the same song, given no distractions, if the song is what i consider great for whatever reason I'm lost in it. Opeth is the only band that I can say regularly generates these feelings when I'm in the proper setting.

I think it's great that you have found a new avenue for music, yet, to me that avenue can exist with ANY style of music if you put your mind to it. At least that's my opinion.

 

[Miltbrand]

Hmm... I can´t/won´t get involved in this discussion.

All I know, is which albums bring the most extreme kinds of feelings to the surface in me.
Probably not many here that know ´em, but Endvra has made this little pearl called 'Great God Pan'. This is militant (or so I atleast think, ambient fans may know better) ambient.
Anyway, I once listened to this album with the lights off, closed eyes and all that. I soon got to this point just between being awake and asleep. Then, in the 3rd 0r 4th song, this voice starts chanting (the vocals were recorded in the dome of a church = chilly and scary!). I sit up, turn on the light and start looking for this man in my room! I´ve seriously never been more scared in my life!!!
After that, this album, and the song in particular has been a favourite of mine to fall asleep to.

 

[Manbient]

Hmm... I can´t/won´t get involved in this discussion.

All I know, is which albums bring the most extreme kinds of feelings to the surface in me.
Probably not many here that know ´em, but Endvra has made this little pearl called 'Great God Pan'. This is militant (or so I atleast think, ambient fans may know better) ambient.
Anyway, I once listened to this album with the lights off, closed eyes and all that. I soon got to this point just between being awake and asleep. Then, in the 3rd 0r 4th song, this voice starts chanting (the vocals were recorded in the dome of a church = chilly and scary!). I sit up, turn on the light and start looking for this man in my room! I´ve seriously never been more scared in my life!!!
After that, this album, and the song in particular has been a favourite of mine to fall asleep to.

That is a great album. We were actually discussing the whole "being semi awake to music in the dark" phenomenon on another board not long ago. It's the most bizarre and moving thing ever. It's only happened to me maynbe 5 times in my life, and every time i end up with one of the best experiences i've had with music. So weird. That's partially what the room i made for listening to this stuff is for as well.