Music as an environment vs music as melody

[Manbient]

The argument you advanced is a ludicrous one: "I create a different song by listening to it over better speakers, and also, music is better if it's made from car noises." The whole analysis is pathetically superficial; you're concerned with how music is heard rather than with its actual content. This is a waste of time, in my view, but there's no sense in fucking detonating just because I disagree.

"better"? i think you should reread what i wrote. I made no such claims. If it is a waste of time, don't post in this thread, because that is what this thread is about. It is about music existing not based on WHAT exactly is being "played", but on how it exists in a "space" to create a sound environment. The radio example was meant to show you that the sound no longer is WHAT the song is, but the fact that it SOUNDS like a radio 5 feet to your left. The song itself is inconsequential, what i am referring to is what the listener decides they are hearing in terms of location and source. It's not that you are listening to an actual radio, but the reproduction of that sound in a distinct location from better equipment. If you don't want to talk about that because it is useless and "bad listening", then post in another thread about the other things you want to talk about. I find this interesting, some other people here find this interesting, and we are here to discuss it, not have you come in and explain to us how wrong we are for even thinking about this "waste of time".

 

[Manbient]

Not a fan of instant messengers (so I don't have or use any), but I PMed you my e-mail address.

Alright. I may just talk to you via PM then on here

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

"better"? i think you should reread what i wrote. I made no such claims.

Horseshit, you clearly imply a qualitative difference between merely 'melodic' music and the "more cerebral" 'atmospheric' music.

If it is a waste of time, don't post in this thread, because that is what this thread is about.

Nigga please. I posted a different interpretation of the phenomenon you clumsily groped at when you weren't busy congratulating yourself for buying speakers, and you responded as if it were a personal attack. If you can't address the thoughts of others, then perhaps you shouldn't put your own thoughts out in public, no?

It is about music existing not based on WHAT exactly is being "played", but on how it exists in a "space" to create a sound environment.

Except that this is about you going back and trying to retroactively make this about mystical hippie bullshit about "space" and "sound environments" when your original post was clear and explicit in its purpose:

Does anyone else ever think about the way we percieve music?

You're retracing your steps and trying to claim this is about the nature of music, but your original post was about how we perceive (that is, hear) music, rather than about music itself. It's not my fault that you can't decide what the fuck your point is actually supposed to be.

The radio example was meant to show you that the sound no longer is WHAT the song is, but the fact that it SOUNDS like a radio 5 feet to your left.

And the point there is that you're too concerned with what a song SOUNDS LIKE to be concerned with what it is. Now move along, kid.

The song itself is inconsequential, what i am referring to is what the listener decides they are hearing in terms of location and source.

Of course they are, but the MUSIC ITSELF HASN'T CHANGED. You're using an example irrelevant to the point you raised. Come back when you've actually constructed an argument.

 

[Tubbs]

WHOOP HERE HE GOES AGAIN SHIT THREAD.

- the TMSFGJAEUPGWMSFFWELCFBTPMN

 

[Manbient]

I don't argue with people who simply try to look for errors rather than addressing the obvious point. Congratulations on ruining this thread, and your victory over me.

 

[Tubbs]

Laeth is such a troll...

- the TMSFGJAEUPGWMSFFWELCFBTPMN

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

When you present an argument so littered with errors that a coherent point can't be lifted from it, how are we supposed to respond? You seem to be having a hard time with basic concepts like finding evidence with a relationship to your thesis.

 

[Manbient]

put on your headphones, turn off the light, and close your eyes.

http://www.bumblelovesmusic.com/music/soundenvironment.mp3

What i find fascinating and what this thread is about is the ability of sound to create virtual images in your mind of things that do not actually exist. It's the ability of sound to put you in a place relative to other things. This is a simple example, but there are many other implications of these tactics. By creating these "places", attached to them are often times emotional responses For example, did your emotional state change, even if slighty, at 1:07 in this clip?

I think this is somewhat of an untapped and unexplored area of "music" (if you can think of a better word, let me know) with a lot of potential; potential to make you feel like you are somewhere you are not, and with that comes an attached mindset and set of emotions.

 

[FUBAR]

put on your headphones, turn off the light, and close your eyes.

http://www.bumblelovesmusic.com/music/soundenvironment.mp3

What i find fascinating and what this thread is about is the ability of sound to create virtual images in your mind of things that do not actually exist. It's the ability of sound to put you in a place relative to other things. This is a simple example, but there are many other implications of these tactics. By creating these "places", attached to them are often times emotional responses For example, did your emotional state change, even if slighty, at 1:07 in this clip?

I think this is somewhat of an untapped and unexplored area of "music" (if you can think of a better word, let me know) with a lot of potential; potential to make you feel like you are somewhere you are not, and with that comes an attached mindset and set of emotions.

This is interesting, I dig what your trying to say and I like the idea of music creating images in your head. Thats a strange little clip of sounds and it did conjour up images in my head. It actaully reminded me of this band called Everlovely Lightiningheart, they actually create 'music' like that, I think their album is out now on Aaron Turners Hydra Head label.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

I think this is somewhat of an untapped and unexplored area of "music" (if you can think of a better word, let me know) with a lot of potential; potential to make you feel like you are somewhere you are not, and with that comes an attached mindset and set of emotions.

Untapped perhaps in popular music, but there's a 1000+ year history of pursuing just such ends in the Western classical tradition (not to mention 30+ years of metal, ambient, hardcore and industrial music in a similar vein).

 

[Manbient]

Untapped perhaps in popular music, but there's a 1000+ year history of pursuing just such ends in the Western classical tradition (not to mention 30+ years of metal, ambient, hardcore and industrial music in a similar vein).

Indeed, but we are only now approaching the level of technology to produce convincing results. I don't mean "a little bit", i mean, when that is entirely the goal, and nothing else. Sort of what i meant in my first post when i said "what happens when taken to the extreme?".

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

I take it you've never been to a symphonic performance? The capability has been there for ages, what you're talking about is recorded window dressing.

 

[Ermz]

Production is a tactical choice. As with any choice, some are better than others, but this is specific to a given work and doesn't alter its fundamental nature.

It can be an artistic consideration as much as a technical one. The idea is that the fundamental piece of music doesn't change, yet the way we perceive in does, which in some cases is almost equally as important.

The idea that's been sent across here is that the actual musical content, delivered in a 5.1 format, allows the OP to trigger greater emotional response when listening to the material.

Sound quality is an entirely superficial beast, but revelation of the fact shouldn't undermine it's fundamental importance in the delivery of music. This is why bands have been paying for recording studios, engineers and producers for many decades. The art of presenting the music to the listener is just as important as the musical content itself, many times.

 

[Ermz]

I've been to a symphonic performance. An orchestra is combined of many elements, all of which can be isolated and ultimately none of which can provide the degree of sonic variation that synthesizers, samplers and sequencers can in conjunction with a digital medium.

 

[Manbient]

I take it you've never been to a symphonic performance? The capability has been there for ages, what you're talking about is recorded window dressing.

We're definitely not on the same page. a live symphony is "there", the images are not virtual, they are real, because the sound is projected from what you hear it comming from. Plus, i mean things that don't sound like music. Things that accurately reproduce the "sound" of a space through speakers. A live symphony hasn't made me feel as though i were in a large cave, or out at sea before. I mean more along the lines of being able to pinpoint the location of a sound in terms of distance AND in terms of how the sound of that object reflects off the "virtual" soundspace created to give the perception of depth and size of the "room", none of which are real. It's the ability to create speaker transparency so it doesn't sound like speakers are even in the room or a part of the equation.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

It can be an artistic consideration as much as a technical one. The idea is that the fundamental piece of music doesn't change, yet the way we perceive in does, which in some cases is almost equally as important.

The idea that's been sent across here is that the actual musical content, delivered in a 5.1 format, allows the OP to trigger greater emotional response when listening to the material.

Sound quality is an entirely superficial beast, but revelation of the fact shouldn't undermine it's fundamental importance in the delivery of music. This is why bands have been paying for recording studios, engineers and producers for many decades. The art of presenting the music to the listener is just as important as the musical content itself, many times.

This reflects the intellectual inadequacy of most listeners, rather than anything inherent to the art itself. It is a secondary concern inasmuch as production choices can, at best, enhance the communcative potential of great art, but cannot make bad art good.

 

[Kenneth R.]

this i agree with.

however, i do also see where mumblefood is coming from and think it's quite a cool idea.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

I've been to a symphonic performance. An orchestra is combined of many elements, all of which can be isolated and ultimately none of which can provide the degree of sonic variation that synthesizers, samplers and sequencers can in conjunction with a digital medium.

By the same token, synthesizers, samplers and sequencers cannot adequately reproduce organic instruments in the hands of professionals either, nor a digital environment the sound quality of an orchestra in a dedicated concert hall, so it's a wash. But the idea that conceptual music hasn't been explored is absurd.

 

[JoeVice]

as production choices can, at best, enhance the communcative potential of great art

i think that this was the point of the thread.

i listened to a soundscape cd of a thunderstorm once on a wicked bose sound system. it was fucking sweet....very real....i later listened to the same thing on a tiny cd/alarm clock thing. there were frequencies that this thing just wouldn't put out. it was very obvious that it was not a real thunderstorm.

 

[Hyperborean Exile]

We're definitely not on the same page. a live symphony is "there", the images are not virtual, they are real, because the sound is projected from what you hear it comming from. Plus, i mean things that don't sound like music. Things that accurately reproduce the "sound" of a space through speakers. A live symphony hasn't made me feel as though i were in a large cave, or out at sea before. I mean more along the lines of being able to pinpoint the location of a sound in terms of distance AND in terms of how the sound of that object reflects off the "virtual" soundspace created to give the perception of depth and size of the "room", none of which are real. It's the ability to create speaker transparency so it doesn't sound like speakers are even in the room or a part of the equation.

At that point though, you've moved entirely out of the realm of music (and conceptual art generally), and into the realm of purely representation (which is largely a field for technicians rather than artists). You record the sound of waves and then play it back over the sound equipment. Demanding technically, yes, but artistically? It doesn't take much. It's far more difficult to take an orchestra (or guitar, drums, bass and keyboards) and paint a metal picture with sound, and far more rewarding for the listener.