New Producer

[Minion520]

shh, don't get him riled up now. see he changed the nickname to signify giving this place another chance, so let's keep a happy vibe goin .

I sure am thankful he was gracious and forgiving enough to give us a second chance, we would never want to loose such a valued and all-knowing member.

 

[Mirrored Ghost]

I hold no hate toward Mr. Wilson but he is indeed one of the most overrated musicians I have seen in recent years.
His music is nothing more than a rip off of Pink Floyd, Tangerine Dream or any other phychadelic/progressive band that is actually good. It is devoid of any originality.

I think you're confusing being "influenced" with ripping off from other bands. Every band is influenced one way or another by other artists. Opeth is not the first death metal band to use soft and heavy parts in their songs, right??

what i find interesting is all the assumption on peoples parts of how much steven is affecting the material on the record, rather than the production, or effects or just spicing things up.

i think most of you would be in for a rude awakening on how much less steven had to do with the recent material than what is being assumed.

Lord Hypnos, I agree with what you're saying. If fact, since I have joined here, I found myself agreeing with most everything you say. It's a shame you took my past joke with you the wrong way. I like to get silly sometimes with people who I like on the board. As strange as it may seem to you, it's my humour and a way of being friendly. So, peace.

Anyway, I'd like to quote something Steve said in the documentary that is relevant to this...

"Mike will come in with an idea for a lead guitar part or a vocal line and it's really a question for me of finding how to put it into a sound world so that it sounds distinct from the vocals and all the other leads and not just another heavy guitar solo or another straight vocal part."


Also, I noticed there is alot of hubb bubb about the sophistication statement that Steve made on the DVD, so I actually took the time to really listen to what the hell he actually said. I suggest for alot of people here to clean out their ears and HEAR what he is saying.....

"With Opeth, there is a degree of sophistication which is nothing to do with metal at all..."

Then he goes on by saying how they write similar to how he writes and how there is both beauty and brutality in their music.

What this statement is saying, peoples, is that there is not only metal moments in Opeth's music and neither with his. He's basically saying that they incorporate soft acoustics and/or certain SOUNDS (that are not metal at all) with their heavy style and that adds to the "complexity" of the music (degree of sophistication). That is a true statement. At no time did he say that Opeth or his music is more sophisticated than other metal bands or that no other band does this. He is simply saying what they have in common. You guys totally misconstrued his statement and it's a shame that he can't be here to clarify that. How many times have any of you made a statement that was misunderstood and had to go back and explain what the hell you were talking about?? It happens to everyone.


If you don't like Wilson's production, fine. To go on with name calling and finding new ways to make fun of the guy is not only irrelevant to this whole convo, but it's childish.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[G-Master]

Concerning SW's statement on the dvd, I actually went by what I have been told by others. They were the ones that had misunderstood the meaning and I was a little too open to take it as if those were his actual words without hearing it for myself. My mistake there.

And no Mirrored Ghost, Opeth are not the first metal band to incorporate the contrast between soft and heavy in their music. However, try telling Opeth fanboys this.
The name calling may indeed be considered childish. I welcome that. So is boastful arrogance from an average musician. SW and Mike may share quite a few similarities in their approach to writing songs or constructing some work and ideas in the studio, in fact they now have too much in common. It is no longer only Opeth's music for Steve Wilson also has his mark in there as well.

One fellow did have a good point about how Opeth and SW were more strongly intent on putting their main focus on "Damnation" rather than "Deliverance". True. Bad move. Deliverance was a tasteless observation which required no heavy thought or observance in the first place. It mainly, if anything showcased Martin's average (yet uniquely fitting for them) abilities behind the kit. Nothing more. It was dry. And so was "Damnation", yet I will proudly admit that I enjoy that album.

As far as the comparison between Devin and Steven. Well I will have to agree that Devin (though he possesses more talent in his pinky than SW does in his body) would not be too fitting for Opeth. Yet a change is needed greatly whether the boys in Sweden choose to acknowledge that or not.

Let's see Opeth return to the great level they once were at.

 

[NFU]

Mmm. The classic 'metal' sound is definately what SW seems to think of when prompted with the genre.

First of all moonlapse, 95% of the world thinks of classic "metal" when the term is said...so for Steven Wilson to feel the same isnt a crime, but merely what is natural. Most people havent heard of undeground bands, so to assume everyone should be as "enlightend" in "troo metal" the way you are is absurd, and just not the reality. I know for a fact that Steven is familiar with many underground acts, and just feels a lot of the genre is silly and lacking of substance, and repetative....which is his right to feel that way.

Second of all, to be upset with his "ignorance" assuming he wasnt just generalizing...(the man knows his shit in my opinion) is no different than many of the genres i guarantee youre mostly ignorant in that Steven Wilson would know a lot about...so its really the same thing.

It seems like many people are using Stevens personal material, and his opinions on music, and vocals and everything completely unrelated to Opeth, as a crutch to complain about recent Opeth material...which is absurd.

I have my own judgements of Steven for certain things, i dont think hes spotless whatsoever, but i love his music and the depth hes added to Opeth. I also have my own judgements of Opeth for certain things, and i keep those seperate from my Steven issues...makes it much easier to rationalize.

 

[NFU]

I believe he claimed Opeth to be the most sophisticated metal band out there.
Funny ... I find Adagio, Symphony X, Morbid Angel, Spiral Architect, Watchtower, Arcturus, Winds and countless others to surpass Opeth on any level of sophistication.

LOL @ at those bands being more "sophisticated" than Opeth.

technicality and sophistication are not the same thing.


But you have proved Steven right...there are definitely prepubescent punks who feel listening to underground metal bands give them a voice on things they dont really know anything about. :Smug:

 

[Demilich]

But you have proved Steven right...there are definitely prepubescent punks who feel listening to underground metal bands give them a voice on things they dont really know anything about. :Smug:

All your ranting about differences of opinion and how not everyone has the same background in music and this is where it leads? So he's not allowed to differ in opinion from you on what music is "sophistocated"? I was actually agreeing with you for much of this thread, but your last post burst the bubble entirely. To me, you're still the same old judgemental elitist you've been since day one.

I'm not going to name-drop bands that I think are more sophistocated than Opeth, but suffice it to say that there are several. And I don't care if this makes me a prepubescent punk who voices opinions on things I don't know anything about. I know that I listen to music and no one is going to tell me what to think about this music.

 

[NFU]

All your ranting about differences of opinion and how not everyone has the same background in music and this is where it leads? So he's not allowed to differ in opinion from you on what music is "sophistocated"? I was actually agreeing with you for much of this thread, but your last post burst the bubble entirely. To me, you're still the same old judgemental elitist you've been since day one.

I'm not going to name-drop bands that I think are more sophistocated than Opeth, but suffice it to say that there are several. And I don't care if this makes me a prepubescent punk who voices opinions on things I don't know anything about. I know that I listen to music and no one is going to tell me what to think about this music.

my last post was a joke, aside from disagreeing that the bands he listed were more sophisticated than opeth. But youre free to feel about me whatever youd like...i dont really care either way.

i just wish people here would stop assuming that i care if they find me arrogant or an elitest or whatever, its such a waste of everyones time...i am very passionate about music, especially the music i like and know about...so if that makes me judgemental and an elitest, then im perfectly fine with that label. move on.

 

[Mirrored Ghost]

Concerning SW's statement on the dvd, I actually went by what I have been told by others. They were the ones that had misunderstood the meaning and I was a little too open to take it as if those were his actual words without hearing it for myself. My mistake there.

Yeah, well, the statement that he made WAS pretty vague and as you can see, people are still trying to figure out what he meant by saying what he did. I just didn't take it in a negative way towards metal bands whatsoever. To me, it was just a pointing out of how they go about making their music.

Deliverance was a tasteless observation which required no heavy thought or observance in the first place. It mainly, if anything showcased Martin's average (yet uniquely fitting for them) abilities behind the kit. Nothing more. It was dry. And so was "Damnation", yet I will proudly admit that I enjoy that album.

Well, I can't agree with what you're saying here so I'm just going to leave it as that.

 

[mot-]

He is even show presenting a freshly-written idea to Steve Wilson for a fucking opinion (the interlude in A Fair Judgement). It's almost like he was looking for acknowledgement.

Oh my god, he's asking for the opinion of an experienced musician! How untrue!

 

[NFU]

mikael can ask for stevens opinion...the same way steven asked for mikael to put some solos and his vocals on the new PT record.

get over yourselves.

 

[Ermz]

I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[mot-]

Indeed.

 

[NFU]

I think he was being sarcastic.

i know, that was actually in response to your comments on steven earlier.

 

[Static]

I would disapprove on account of not liking Devin's music, nor production techniques.

 

[Ermz]

Oh in that case you probably should've altered your statement to say 'get over yourself *points at Moonlapse*' .

I wasn't actually focusing on mike's reliance on Steve Wilson in that quotation. I was more trying to establish the fact that the material wasn't written before they were in the studio with SW.

 

[NFU]

A. Mike has a great voice for melodic singing. It's not your average alarm-clock metal voice'. Maybe he just hasn't been introduced to the finer points of metal, or perhaps he's just naturally an arrogant ass.

B. It's the fact that Opeth are starting to incoporate PT dynamics that's starting to worry me.

C.I really think they need a breather from SW and try using another producer, at least for one album. He is sort of like their anchor onto that BWP signature sound. Opeth has always been about constantly evolving, but I'm afraid with him undertoning the whole process that won't happen.

A.....he said AVERAGE alarm clock voice...meaning the majority, not the "finer points" of metal.

B......and what exactly is a porcupine tree dynamic? layered vocals? harmony vocals? guitar effects? piano/mellotron/organ interludes/intros?......correct me if im wrong, but those have been staples of thousands of rock, metal or progressive bands in some form since the dawn of those genres. And considering mikaels major influences, you can bet he would want all of those in the material eventually anyway, SW or someone else.

C....you can really sit there and tell me blackwater park wasnt different than still life? and that deliverance wasnt different from blackwater park? and that damnation wasnt different from deliverance?


i dont understand this mentality.....admit you dont like Mikaels current writing and stop blaming it on the producer if you have SUCH an issue with the post blackwater park material...otherwise youre going to look like a fool.

 

[Ermz]

Reffering to B: Mikael has found plenty of ways of incorporating those influences of his in a non-generic way in the past. With Deliverance it came to be abuse of their own cliched song structure. That was the saving grace of the album in a sense, that was what kept it feeling like 'Opeth', as good few of the tracks could have gone alot shorter than they did. It's obvious that there are alot of filler parts, like the acoustic interlude in MA with the harmonised vocals. But a good majority of that album was written on-the-go, and that's fine. Maybe Mike was listening to some PT and decided to use it as inspiration for a filler, or maybe SW came up with the idea and Mike thought it was a good contrast to the rest of the song. In any sense, it simply isn't up to par with how the songs transitioned on say SL or MAYH. That is forgiveable though, as they were intense recording conditions and all indicators point towards Damnation having been the bigger focus.

C: Still Life certainly is different from BWP. BWP is similar to Deliverance in the sense that it is a degradation of the previous album. BWP at the very least had some new elements to keep the listener engaged (alot of production tricks brought in by SW, and alot of things Opeth couldn't have done without him in the past). Deliverance is a stripping of the finer points of Opeth's music and a projection of the bare-bones, cliched Opeth structure. And what was Damnation? A couple of acoustic parts that were meant to go into Deliverance, except given new life with a new toy (mellotron) and time to fuck around in the studio with effects? They are some nice relaxing songs, but you'd get the same effect if you'd tracked Face of Melinda with a mellotron and shitloads of e-bow and crazy flanger/phaser effects.

The thing is that as long as he's there, it seems like they'll use those harmonized vocal parts and filler strumming acoustic interludes out of necessity, or to utilize SW's 'talent' in their music in some way.

This is a conscious choice by Mike and band, no doubt, but it's a sound I doubt we would have heard out of Opeth had SW never produced their albums. He produced BWP, that's fine, it was something different. With Deliverance it was stretching it a bit. SW is stuck in that one sound of his, and he will keep tainting Opeth records with it. Opeth have always been about evolution, and I really think he is the anchor. As long as he's there we'll keep hearing all those rocky elements which would have been toned down in favour of new experimentation in a previous Opeth album-to-album progression. Deliverance was lacking, and it seems as if they used SW to compensate for that in some way.

Yes, I will admit I don't like Mike's writing on the past 3 releases as much as I did during the first four. The majority of it lays on him, no doubt, but I like to focus on SW, as he was almost the catalyst for this change in Opeth. Were it not for him, Opeth wouldn't have had the potential to create a record such as BWP, and we would have seen a stronger emphasis on composition as opposed to the production which keeps it all together.

If Swano was at the helm again, Opeth would most likely be forced to focus more around the music itself, and put more thought into that, as opposed to seeing how many PT elements they can fit in there whilst still sounding like themselves.

I'll say it again though, you are right about Mike being the major factor here. It is fairly naive to blame SW for *everything* these past 3 records, but I certainly don't think his signature production sound is going to help Opeth evolve any from this point onwards. Whether they are starting to use more of his elements out of obligation, lazyness, actual want, I'm not really sure, but I know that if he weren't there, we would have different sounding albums, and perhaps different as in 'better'.

 

[G-Master]

This is a conscious choice by Mike and band, no doubt, but it's a sound I doubt we would have heard out of Opeth had SW never produced their albums. He produced BWP, that's fine, it was something different. With Deliverance it was stretching it a bit. SW is stuck in that one sound of his, and he will keep tainting Opeth records with it. Opeth have always been about evolution, and I really think he is the anchor. As long as he's there we'll keep hearing all those rocky elements which would have been toned down in favour of new experimentation in a previous Opeth album-to-album progression. Deliverance was lacking, and it seems as if they used SW to compensate for that in some way.

I'll say it again though, you are right about Mike being the major factor here. It is fairly naive to blame SW for *everything* these past 3 records, but I certainly don't think his signature production sound is going to help Opeth evolve any from this point onwards. Whether they are starting to use more of his elements out of obligation, lazyness, actual want, I'm not really sure, but I know that if he weren't there, we would have different sounding albums, and perhaps different as in 'better'.

I agree that BWP was fine. In fact I look at it as a fine opus from Opeth. SW introduced the guys to a few new elements to experience with in the studio for additional textures and moods for the album. Fine. And job well done. It was something different as they had altered a few things from the last record.
Along comes "Deliverance", in no way had they gone through any transformation for new experiments. Merely the same old SW signature sound that worked for one album. Move on. I can appreciate "Damnation". Mike had always thought about working on an album that was entirely "soft". In fact I think the influence he had gathered from SW did make it appealing in some sense, yet his influence was too strong.

It is naive to judge SW so harshly when Mike is the one chiefly writing the songs. Absolutely, Mike is aware that Wilson's influence has strengthened since day one. Mainly in the studio. Mike's songwriting has become stagnant and empty of any "feel" that he once displayed greatly on previous works. Now he merely hastens to complete a song as quickly as possible so he can see what ideas they can come up with to supposedly "spice" the work up. Keep in the mind they are the same fuckin' ideas they have been using. Again I will say ... they are tasteless observations.

technicality and sophistication are not the same thing.


But you have proved Steven right...there are definitely prepubescent punks who feel listening to underground metal bands give them a voice on things they dont really know anything about.

Joke or not, it was still lame. And I was referring to sophistication in that statement, and still am. It is the correct word. Those bands certainly are more complex. You jumped to cut me down because you noticed, Watchtower, was mentioned. Yes they are highly technical as they are sophisticated. More so than Opeth. Get over it.
Yeah I can take a joke, very well at that. Regardless, whether you were truly joking or not, it was unnecessary and only proved that Opeth's fanbase is polluted with far too many elitists that believe their band can do no wrong. You may not agree that those bands I mentioned surpass Opeth in a sophisticated sense. Fine. But they do.
Prepubescent punk? Hardly. Opinionated asshole? Indeed.

 

[dorian gray]

this is one of the best threads in a long time....too bad there's not much left to add.

im not sure how this fits in here but i'm garnering a greater appreciation for the first four albums and less for the SW-produced bunch. probably like most newer fans, i started out with the reverse. anyone else experience that?

 

[Minion520]

Another point that I would like to bring up is that Mikael plans for this album to be sooo beautifully dark and black and Wilson is just gonna shit all over that with his gay telephone effects and double fading shit, what he has displayed thus far in his "imaculate and ever so broad music career" shows that he is not the right producer for this album. I'm getting at the fact that his neo-prog shit infleunce is not what opeth needs on a dark concept album. It seems though that Mikael is set on Wilson and there will nothing that will change his mind, so.........hopefully he will prove me wrong.