Non-gay bro thread a.k.a. Random offtopic stuff.

[The Grayfox]

I think reactivation of Nevermore has more to do with finally enough time having passed where the brand can command a decently high price again than whatever epiphany Loomis had. I think he knew exactly what he was signing up for when he accepted the Arch Enemy gig.
As for Nevermore, remember that Warrel played with a bunch of random dudes from south america and performed the material, and it wasn't exactly expensive either. It's all just good timing is what it is.

Can Nevermore attract more $$$ than Arch Enemy? Doubtful, even without Alissa. He must have some really big names locked in for the line up that will raise the profile of the brand.

Oh, I know that he knew what he was signing up for. I just can't imagine having him at your disposal and not utilizing him better. I think for Jeff, it was a better pay day than his solo stuff. Its not like it made him rich, sure, but it kept him on the road.

He'll make some money in Nevermore, but they were never a big band. He'll do well in Europe for sure. He gave an interview the other day and said they'll be announcing who the new members are around March next year, but he did say that the vocalist is male and sounds a lot like Warrel Dane, and that "all the new musicians" in the band are really good players. I assume we're talking about a vocalist, bassist and second guitarist. He also confirmed that he's writing a new Nevermore album and that its very heavy. As a Nevermore fan, obviously I wish Warrel was still alive to do this, but I'm in the camp that Jeff was also a huge part of the band and I don't think it's fair to criticize him for reactivating it. He was such a huge part of the sound and songwriting that Warrel refused to do a Nevermore reunion without him.

 

[Xpyro125]

Probably should post this in a Cyhra thread, but this feels more like its own thing since it’s a solo Euge song. Genuinely fantastic guitarwork, not too much more to be said about it.

 

[DE4life]

@The Grayfox did you end up using Suno at all in the end? I saw they've "entered into an agreement" with Warner Music, which will no doubt destroy the current service. I got plenty out of it in the end and my subscription had already lapsed, but it looks like it'll be up to China to come out with something on the same level once the current 4.5 and 5 models are removed in favour of the Warner Music V6.

I was speaking to a friend recently and said in the future I could see artists signing up to let people use their likeness and voice to create songs based on that artists catalogue. I didn't consider that many record labels actually own artists work already, so those labels could in fact offer those artists' work up themselves .

 

[The Grayfox]

Yeah, I actually use it quite a bit, just to fuck around with and make covers in differing styles. I think it's really lame that they're going to remove the 4.5 and 5 models. The way of the world I guess: just kill off something people enjoy in favor of making more money. I'm getting really sick of this type of shit. I read that the new models are going to be extremely "hard to fool", in the sense that you won't be able to disguise existing audio (which is what I do now) to get it uploaded and start working out covers. So, yeah, I guess I'll be waiting for something else to pop up. As you said, it's pretty much inevitable that something from China or Russia will appear sooner than later, possibly with those same exact 4.5 and 5 models. You know there's already a shitload of data-mining going on right now.

 

[eochaid]

I was speaking to a friend recently and said in the future I could see artists signing up to let people use their likeness and voice to create songs based on that artists catalogue. I didn't consider that many record labels actually own artists work already, so those labels could in fact offer those artists' work up themselves .

This will be the end of the music.

Cyhra just released another single and it's as forgettable as I was expecting. And I cannot stop thinking that this is the future that I expect the moment the companies or bands start selling their rights and catalogues to AI companies. Plastic packaged shit.

 

[Xpyro125]

This will be the end of the music.

Time to go find more underground shit on random unsigned artists’ bandcamps, it’s all downhill from here otherwise

 

[eochaid]

Back to the old days then.

 

[DE4life]

Yeah, I actually use it quite a bit, just to fuck around with and make covers in differing styles. I think it's really lame that they're going to remove the 4.5 and 5 models. The way of the world I guess: just kill off something people enjoy in favor of making more money. I'm getting really sick of this type of shit. I read that the new models are going to be extremely "hard to fool", in the sense that you won't be able to disguise existing audio (which is what I do now) to get it uploaded and start working out covers. So, yeah, I guess I'll be waiting for something else to pop up. As you said, it's pretty much inevitable that something from China or Russia will appear sooner than later, possibly with those same exact 4.5 and 5 models. You know there's already a shitload of data-mining going on right now.

I just want some local versions to be released. There's a local version of Stable Diffusion and even ChatGPT, although you need a stupid amount of RAM for the bigger ChatGPT model (64GB is the minimum, I think). Just waiting for somebody to release something open source which gives us something Suno adjacent. Unlikely to be quite as polished, but hey, if it's free and open source then it's a lot harder for corporations to get their grubby hands on it and destroy everything. The irony of these record labels, who have been stealing from artists for decades with shitty agreements, pearl-clutching over AI is extreme. They only care because it might slightly dent their profits - they couldn't care less about the artists themselves.

I saw a post on the Suno reddit the other day, it mentioned a prompt for creating a "live" performance from one of the existing songs you'd made. To be honest I had never even thought about using it that way, but I tried it out and it actually worked really well. Some generations were admittedly better than others, and it wasn't perfect, but I got a half-decent "live" version of most of the stuff I'd completed. Pretty much ran all of my remaining credits out. The prompt, if you want to try it out, is:

"A high-energy live festival performance of this song, played on a massive outdoor stage in front of a huge crowd, Include loud audience ambience, cheering, clapping, and the crowd singing along loudly during the chorus, The crowd are singing along and allowed to sing some of lines, The lead vocal should sound live and energetic, with natural reverb and a raw concert feel, Instruments should feel amplified and powerful, like a real live show, with crowd reactions between lines and big audience participation in the hook, The overall sound should feel immersive, wide, and atmospheric - a full stadium or festival vibe"

The quality of the crowd noise and participation definitely varies. I'd say 1/4 of the time it's really good, and otherwise it'll either be passable or just so bad the generation has to be binned.

It's also worth putting an [Intro] tag at the start and putting something there, otherwise it tends to just have somebody saying random gibberish that vaguely sounds like a song introduction but is clearly meaningless. Giving it intros to use, I was actually shocked by how well it integrated the tag into the song. It tends to either add the intro over the top of the beginning of the song, if there's an instrumental intro, or the intro is your typical speak and then the song starts.



I'd say this was probably the best generation I got - and I have to admit, in many ways an outlier as none of the others managed to integrate the introduction quite this well and create what sounds very much like a proper live version of the song. Even down to the crowd singing in the background, which I didn't get in any of the others.

The only problem I found with the ones where the crowd are more involved, is that it tends to fuck up at some point. Usually by just having the crowd sing certain parts, and unfortunately they usually sound insanely drunk while doing so. Usually it's the chorus, and if you have that repeated a few times then usually you can use one of the other choruses to fix the mangled one, but yeah... not perfect. Still very cool though.

 

[DE4life]

This will be the end of the music.

Cyhra just released another single and it's as forgettable as I was expecting. And I cannot stop thinking that this is the future that I expect the moment the companies or bands start selling their rights and catalogues to AI companies. Plastic packaged shit.

There's been a lot of angst about people using the likes of Suno to generate music, but the fact is individuals using these services was never going to be a major concern. There's a ceiling to what the vast majority of individual users are ever going to achieve with this. For most it'll just be a personal thing, and for people trying to create virtual bands and actually monetise, the reality is they're only ever going to have a miniscule amount of listeners or engagement, because people ultimately need much more than just musical output to feel really connected to a band or a project. That's something an individual is not going to be able to achieve in any tangible way, as for a start their virtual band isn't going to be able to tour or provide any kind of genuine fan engagement.

The real danger has always been the prospect of record labels buying up these music AI companies and integrating it into their business model. They do have the ability to craft levels of fan engagement and even create what are essentially fake bands and artists to tour these songs. It will get to the point, if it isn't already, where nobody would be able to tell if a song was created entirely with AI. Especially if the AI output is covered by a "real" artist or band and then passed off as legitimate. I think that's where we're heading, and it does indeed suck, but it fits into the post-truth world we live in these days.

Truth be told, the average pop song could easily have been an AI creation. Hell, even a lot of new metal songs could have come from AI, as there's a shitload of bands now just copying existing stuff. Clone bands seem to be everywhere, but because it's "new" music they get a pass, even though the work is typically highly derivative of older bands. I suppose you get to a point where basically everything has been done, but still, it seems really bad nowadays. It's so rare for me to find music where I think "wow, that's a really fresh take on that genre".

Time to go find more underground shit on random unsigned artists’ bandcamps, it’s all downhill from here otherwise

I think this has been the way for a number of years already, honestly. I mean, even if we use Cyhra as an example, they've been going downhill since Letters. That album was genuinely unique and interesting, whereas every album since has been increasingly formulaic and lacking in any new ideas. You see it happen so often - experimentation is cast aside in favour of keeping within the status quo. I guess it's the safer path, but if you want to hear really interesting stuff you have to find lesser known artists who aren't so focused on the business side of things. I think it's why so many of my favourite albums from bands tend to be their earlier ones, where they were less tied to an idea or a certain expected sound.

 

[eochaid]

That's the issue. What they are doing is... They're using the users to train the AI so that they can exploit it in the future. Which means a lot of AI music will come in the future as a replacement for real artists. When they sell the rights for their music or voices it's because they're hoping to change their model to an AI oriented one. That's less effort. Less money spent. No need to invest in tours. And a lot of new music that people will consume because the average fan doesn't care.

I agree that won't make a difference for the average pop music. But we might loose some talented artists in the process. And, seeing how generic metal is these days, I bet that there's going to be a high impact in the metal scene. I don't see a big difference between something made with AI, in terms of relevance or quality, and the latest Cyhra or IF efforts. But i still prefer real people to make effortless and soulless music than a machine.

Then, AI is reaching to a
halt. Still not in music but yet in AI generated images. Why? Because there's so much AI shit online that AI is being fed with AI images. And that sounds hilarious.

But there are more issues. The main one being that, when the AI scam finally explodes, and it will, the world economy will go to shit. And then there's the fact that the main goals are two. First and more important, money. Second, the replacement of human work by AI at all levels because the tech CEOs are a bunch of psychopaths.

 

[DE4life]

We can only hope that with AI essentially taking the place in the market for bang average music that any idiot could churn out, what's left in terms of genuine artists will see a huge boost in creativity and making an effort to stand out. Bands like Cyhra and In Flames, coasting on bland shit for years at this point, simply won't have a place in a landscape where this kind of thing can be produced by AI and sound far better. Although IF will likely survive purely on the reputation they created before AI became a thing. Cyhra, less so.

Whilst there will be less overall bands around, the quality of those that are still active and producing music may increase as they'll need to make a point with their music. There will need to be genuine thought and care put into releases, rather than "here's another song with basic riffs and dat catchy chorus, enjoy". I believe there is still a place for real, human artistry in the world, and there always will be. AI slop will essentially replace human slop, though, which won't necessarily be a major issue for the average listener. If you're listening to AI giving you a basic melodic metal track instead of Cyhra, are you really losing anything of significant value? Probably not. Whilst yes, I too would prefer to listen to music created by humans, I'm not going to listen to bands like Cyhra churning out basic shit any more than I'd listen to the same thing from AI.

I get the feeling metal won't be too adversely affected as fans of bands want to go to see them on tour, and generally have a deeper connection with the bands they choose to latch onto - for better or for worse. When it comes to other genres, many artists will find themselves obsolete unless they can find a way to make themselves unique. Artists and bands are going to need to begin with a purpose, rather than entering the market as a low-effort clone of some other artist. AI will have that segment covered, and do it better, so I don't think that will be viable.

 

[eochaid]

I don't have that much high hopes for the future. IF is becoming more and more relevant since their music has become more and more soulless.

As for metal. Just look at the new bands from the past... 20 years? I don't see that much difference, today between metal and mainstream pop music. Nu Metal just murdered the whole genre. Once that the veterans retire, what we will have left is a vast nothingness.

AI is just the last nail in the coffin. Creativity is done. People just want quantity, not quality. And AI is just bringing that. Goodbye to real effort.

The good thing about AI is that it will help to separate functional humans from AI users. People that still can use their brains will have a strong advantage over the masses that have yet started to rely on AI even for their own thinking.

 

[DE4life]

As far as Power Metal is concerned, there have been some cool new bands I've discovered over the past few years. Powerwolf - even though their schtick gets kind of old after a couple of albums. Beast in Black, although idk why it's taken them so long to release a follow up to Dark Connection. They're releasing a new album in late 2026 apparently, but five years seems like a long time between albums for a relatively new band. If it's good then I guess it's fine. Fellowship are awesome.

MDM... can't remember the last time I heard something genuinely good from a newer band that isn't just a rehash of what came before it. Maybe the genre has just been done to death (no pun intended). Nothing even close to the level of TJR, Whoracle, Colony or Clayman has been released since those albums came out by any band that I've heard. Not even a decent clone band doing similar stuff. Lightning in a bottle, it seems.

It does seem to be slim pickings nowadays in general. Doesn't feel like it was that way back in the day, there were so many different bands I listened to and enjoyed. Maybe it's just part of getting old, though. You've heard almost everything, so it gets increasingly difficult to discover something genuinely new and interesting.

I've seen first hand at my job the value of the people who have no clue what they're doing and rely on AI versus the people who know what they're doing and only use it to speed up tedious tasks. Having to go through somebody's shitty AI code and rewrite it because it's only half right is no fun.

 

[The Grayfox]

As a creative, I would never try to monetize anything I've created in Suno or anything else. I don't even share the "music" I create. It's solely for me to have fun with. People monetizing AI are pieces of shit and are actively contributing to the problem. AI can be an extremely useful tool, but as soon as you start passing it off as anything more than what it actually is, you're abusing it, imo. Every year we have a county fair and every year there is always a "locals art exhibit." It ranges from photography to digital illustration to paintings, etc. They give out awards for different categories. When they were giving out the awards for digital illustration, it came to light that the person who won 2nd place had created the image using stable diffusion. When they took the award back, he argued that he should be allowed to submit AI work, as he "worked hard writing the prompts, probably just as hard as any artist had worked on their piece." That's the shit that pisses me off. It's similar to when cameras on phones became the normal and everybody thought they were a professional photographer because they could use filters. Enjoy it for what it is, but it's a slap in the face to every real artist when you think that writing a fucking prompt is "basically the same thing" as actually creating.

 

[DE4life]

I pretty much feel the same way. I don't mind sharing stuff that I think sounds cool, but I'd never distribute it. My prompts are often very simple, and even though I put some effort into the lyrics in terms of their structure and flow, that's not enough to justify releasing an entire music track. Besides of which, many of the songs I generated had samples from other tracks used as a base for the AI to create the music - typically chiptunes from 8/16 bit games. They often sound very cool when converted to guitar melodies, but it still isn't my creation.

I've used Stable Diffusion and yeah, it's cool, but there's no comparison to a real artist who actually created something from scratch. It's offensive to even suggest that, honestly, and I feel the same way when it comes to Suno. Yes, you can generate cool stuff which sounds good, but you didn't actually do the majority of the work yourself. I make a slight exception when it's a cover of existing material, for example the 'covers' the AI did of old demos I collaborated on years ago with friends. That becomes a bit of a grey area as the creativity has largely come from humans, with the AI enhancing the end product, but even then the value is less if real people weren't involved in the production.

 

[eochaid]

And that's another problem. Yes. People starting a Patreon because they can write a prompt. And then saying that AI is just another tool, like a pen or photoshop. Ok. Prove it. Stop using AI. Pick a pen and show us what you've got. AI is the same as asking your brother who is good at arts to make your art classroom homework. And, honestly, most of the works look fine but are just boring shit.

But the problem now is about companies sending their catalogues to AI companies in order to train the AI or musicians willing to use it. Apparently, Disney needs the AI to expand their catalogue because they run out of ideas. Pete Twonshend is willing to use AI to finish some riffs because hiring another musician to do that would be bad I'm guessing. Those are just two examples. I have many more. The ministry of culture in Spain financing AI conferences. A bookstore using AI for their xmas comercial. Companies refusing to sign a compromise refusing to use the voices of dub actors to train AI...

And here, they explain pretty well what is happening and what's in the future.

 

[The Grayfox]

It's definitely a problem. It's happening a lot too. A friend of mine works for a company that has a full on creative/design team and the commercial for their company that they recently released was made using Sora. And not just part of it either... the whole commercial. It's like, why the fuck do you have a creative team if you're going to do that? His answer? "The company wanted to save on labor hours." Oh, great. So, you're actively contributing to the problem.

I saw somebody recently make a post on Threads or Twitter or whatever the fuck: recently McDonalds -- I'm not sure if this is just in the States or if it's all over the world -- they introduced an all automated ordering system. I don't eat McDonalds, so I wasn't sure exactly what that meant but after looking it up, it was pretty straight-forward: there are no order takers anymore. You walk up to a counter and basically use a self-service machine to order whatever you want, effectively eliminating thousands of jobs nationwide. So, they've cut jobs, increased their profits in doing so, yet their "food" prices increased this year. It doesn't matter how much easier they make their own lives, it doesn't matter how much money they've saved, jobs they've cut, etc. There will always be a CEO, a higher-up, that feels like its not enough. "I'm not making enough millions a year!" It's fucking maddening. And now, AI is contributing to this problem. I mean, it has been for a while, but it's becoming more commonplace. This is exactly why people are afraid that AI will take their jobs; because it is.

 

[eochaid]

Yes. That's the problem. CEOs wanting to increase their own benefits by decreasing manual labour. Because they need that extra one million.

A recent study shows that the higher someone ranks in a company the more they use AI. And, this, in my opinion, shows that being smart is.not a requisite for being a ceo or a high rank.

You know, when Sam Altman says that he could not raise up a baby without the help of chatgpt, then you know that there's something teeribly weong with these people.

 

[DE4life]

The idea that keeps getting floated is "universal credit", where if AI does make a significant amount of jobs obsolete, states will provide citizens with money to continue living their lives. It's seen as some kind of utopian ideal where ordinary citizens can choose what to do without the worry of needing to have a job to survive. I actually think it's plausible that, in future, something like this will come into existence. Western society is built on a capitalist model - that model doesn't work if nobody has money to spend within the economy. You'd only be left with two options - a form of universal credit, or a descent into a medieval kind of society where the rich preside over the peasants, who rely on scraps to get by or just die off. I think the latter would be avoided as it risks an uprising, so the former would make more sense to retain the current order - which is in many ways the same thing, just not as extreme.

The idea terrifies me though. Citizens would become wholly dependent on the state and corporations to have any decent quality of life. All autonomy would be given up, and the majority of the developed world would enter into a state of informal servitude. The 1% would have total control over everybody else, and as long as the majority beneath them are kept happy at a base level, the chances of any serious rebellion are slim. Give people the means to have a holiday once a year, some streaming subscriptions, adequate food and a roof over their head and most will accept their lot and be grateful for it.

Granted, one could argue we are already there and have been for a long time, but this would solidify it for some time to come. Or at least for as long as the planet can sustain our destructive ways before ejecting us with climate change and viruses. That's probably not too far away regardless, but I don't see a future with AI and universal credit as something to look forward to, regardless of how the media touts it as the next stage of our evolution.

 

[eochaid]

Yeah but... Like... That's the opposite of what conservatives want. They ject reject ideas like universal healthcare. I cannot imagine a world where they send money to people for free. Specially, since capitalism these days is about transferring money from the whole population to the richest 1%.

End the end, their main goel is to finish democracy and install a technocracy where they can make the laws and take all the benefit. This is why they are actively promoting fascism in all the world, specially in Europe. Because regulations are bad for business and, in democracy, governments have to pretend to care about people through laws that defend us against big techs.