2007 Album Stats and Analysis (Awesome stuff inside)

[The Fiddler]

Holy crap dude, way to totally edit my text and take my statement out of context. Denial of this will prove that you're a lying piece of shit since you've accidentally included the ending parenthesis but not the first one due to the fact that you were editing what I had typed to say something completely different.

I said that there are only 2 to 3 subgenres of power metal.... If you want to be nice. There are 6-7, easily more subgenres of death metal which yields a higher good to bad ratio.

Well then, here is your first post in full context, in which you state, "there are still more unique death metal bands than power). How many does power metal have? If you want to be nice you can argue 2 or 3 compared to death metal's growing number...": You wanted 2-3 bands, and I gave you more.

Wow. Get better taste in music dude.

Most death metal is better than 60% of these cookie cutter prog and power bands that don't do anything new for the genre. Granted that there are just as many generic death metal bands out there, but at least death metal has many forms and sub genres (and thus more bands... so even if there are just as many generic death metal bands as generic power, there are still more unique death metal bands than power). How many does power metal have? If you want to be nice you can argue 2 or 3 compared to death metal's growing number...

Oh, and if you still use the term "cookie monster vocals," you need to get out of the 80s or stop listening to metal. There are many many many many different variations of death metal vocal.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Which brings me to the question I posed earlier which no death vocal defender has been able to answer:

What criteria make one growler more talented than another?

Is it that some growlers can "growl in key" better than others?

Can some growlers span 5 octaves instead of 2?

There is more than one kind of death metal growl yes. If you think Jeff Walker's growls sound the same as Chuck Schuldiner's or Tomas Lindberg's then you need your hearing checked.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Well then, here is your first post in full context, in which you state, "there are still more unique death metal bands than power). How many does power metal have? If you want to be nice you can argue 2 or 3 compared to death metal's growing number...": You wanted 2-3 bands, and I gave you more.

Then since you're not a liar, it's clear you simply cannot read.

"Granted that there are just as many generic death metal bands out there, but at least death metal has many forms and sub genres (and thus more bands... so even if there are just as many generic death metal bands as generic power, there are still more unique death metal bands than power)."

This is one sentence.

"How many does power have?" Refers to how many forms and sub genres, not bands. Nobody says "how many bands does (insert genre)l have?" That's horrible English. You either can't read, or you're simply wrong. Pick one and deal with it- but don't misquote me again.

 

[The Fiddler]

There is more than one kind of death metal growl yes. If you think Jeff Walker's growls sound the same as Chuck Schuldiner's or Tomas Lindberg's then you need your hearing checked.

You didn't answer a single question of mine with your reply. That's how these threads get off topic.

As a fan of clean vocals, I'm just trying to figure out how what makes one death metal band appeal to you more than another. So, again, as a fan of death metal, in your opinion:

What criteria make one growler more talented than another?

Is it that some growlers can "growl in key" better than others?

Can some growlers span 5 octaves instead of 2?

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

You didn't answer a single question of mine with your reply. That's how these threads get off topic.

As a fan of clean vocals, I'm just trying to figure out how what makes one death metal band appeal to you more than another. So, again, as a fan of death metal, in your opinion:

What criteria make one growler more talented than another?

Is it that some growlers can "growl in key" better than others?

Can some growlers span 5 octaves instead of 2?

I did answer your question. You just can't read...

There are different kinds of growls. It has nothing to do with "talent," since "talent" is not an objective concept. Tarja and Bruce Dickinson are both talented vocalists (at least in my opinion) but they both have different vocal styles. There are brutal death metal bands like Disgorge (USA) and Devourment that utilize a really really really low gutteral vocal and then there are bands like Carcass (Heartwork era) and Dark Tranquillity where the growl is more of a "snarl."

There's no such thing as growling in key or growling in octave since there (at least as far as our ear is concerned) no musical scale for that kind of style. It's like saying "can you do blastbeats on bongos?"

 

[dcowboys311]

I was just having fun with it, that's all. Sorry if I made it look like a semi-serious reply.
If I'd made a serious reply it would look rather like this:
It doesn't really matter if it takes talent or not, some will prefer the one over the other and most of us will have different reasons for doing so.
And, my opinion in cases like this, well, I mostly keep it to myself and those, poor souls, I consider close friends.
Besides, I won't even try to convince anyone I'm right.
I might try to make you see my side of things but I don't expect you to change your mind accordingly.
In most cases it doesn't really matter anyway.

However, if you were trying to make an argument as to why the numbers look the way they do, Todd's is not a bad one. It's not necessarily correct, it might be completely off the mark, but it is one possible explanation.
You might know it takes some serious talent to growl properly.
I'm sure it does. Just like I know it takes a few minutes to learn how to sing in the style I normally do. I know the time I spent figuring it all out was completely lost on some people. Just like a really good growl technique is completely wasted on me.
The argument Todd made was most likely based on the fact that the numbers have changed and then he went looking at what else had changed and the vocal delivery was one thing. Coincidence, or not, but there it is.
Todd, I'm sure, is perfectly aware that there are other factors that've changed too.
Just compare the number of bands out there today with, say 20 years ago...

Ah, never mind, this is getting boring, and going absolutely nowhere...

Oh, and btw, I was in no way offended.
Ask anyone, this is not an area where I'm "offendable".
Except maybe that one time where this guy walked up to me, utterly amazed, saying "Dude! You sound just like King Diamond!!".

Hehe, sorry about that...I guess I misread it and thought you were being serious. Looking back on it now, it's pretty obvious that you were joking.

but really, the KD comparison is pretty clear, don't you think ?

 

[mëtålspëd]

While I am no expert in the growls, I will put my two cents in.

Like clean singing, there are different vocal presentations (I think we can all agree Matt Barlow is appreciably different from Roberto Tiranti). I LOVE Mikael Åkerfeldt's growling technique. His growls have a much deeper tonal aspect to them. They are fuller, and 'warmer' (no, I am not on LSD). I also happen to love the way Shagrath vocalizes. I think it is quite obvious from someone who has ever heard these two artists, that their styles are much different as well. Shagrath has a much more abrasive, and cold styling he uses. This matches with the style and genre he is in IMO. I do not think you can compare apples to apples, clean vocal rating systems to the vocal stylings of the extreme metal genres.

 

[Urban breed]

but really, the KD comparison is pretty clear, don't you think ?

 

[The Fiddler]

Then since you're not a liar, it's clear you simply cannot read.

"Granted that there are just as many generic death metal bands out there, but at least death metal has many forms and sub genres (and thus more bands... so even if there are just as many generic death metal bands as generic power, there are still more unique death metal bands than power)."

This is one sentence.

With 1101 (31%) of the 2007 releases being categorized as death metal, and only 283 (8%) as power metal, is death metal by definition more unique that power metal in 2007?

Unique, as according to Webster's Dictionary:

"limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area"

Total number of albums registered for a 2007 release at MA is 3596. I had a list below which contained 1300 or so. That was only a third of listed releases hehe.

The word 'death' appears 1101 times in genre style
The word 'black' appears 1053 times in genre style
The word 'power' appears a paltry 283 times in genre style.

 

[dcowboys311]

With 1101 (31%) of the 2007 releases being categorized as death metal, and only 283 (8%) as power metal, is death metal by definition more unique that power metal in 2007?

Unique, as according to Webster's Dictionary:

"limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area"

That includes things like melodic death, blackened death, death/thrash, etc... Metal-Archives has a tendency to add as many genre names to a band as possible. There are many more things that they can do with the word "death" than they can with "power" just based on the way elements of each respective genre can be added to other genres.

 

[The Fiddler]

It's not a matter of ability. Some of us just didn't want to turn this thread into another 'growls vs. clean' debate. But if you insist...

Yeah, imagine that happening on the Prog/Power forum that is the web presecne for a festival that not once in it's 9 years and 120+ bands ever seen a death or black metal band on it's roster. But if you insist on voluntarily replying and keeping the debate going...

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

That includes things like melodic death, blackened death, death/thrash, etc... Metal-Archives has a tendency to add as many genre names to a band as possible. There are many more things that they can do with the word "death" than they can with "power" just based on the way elements of each respective genre can be added to other genres.

Thank you. It's not just about words though, there are simply more variations of death metal than power. Spawn Of Possession, Dark Tranquillity, Cynic, and Paradise Lost (early) all have elements of death metal within their sound but are VERY different bands.

 

[...AndTimeBegan]

Yeah, imagine that happening on the Prog/Power forum that is the web presecne for a festival that not once in it's 9 years and 120+ bands ever seen a death or black metal band on it's roster. But if you insist on voluntarily replying and keeping the debate going...

Mercenary, Orphaned Land, Into Eternity, and Therion can all be considered progressive death. After Forever and Epica can be considered power/death (the only time where power and death metal actually meet is with bands like these, Bodom, Norther etc) In other words, variations of death metal. Wrong again.

 

[skyrefuge]

Yeah, imagine that happening on the Prog/Power forum that is the web presecne for a festival that not once in it's 9 years and 120+ bands ever seen a death or black metal band on it's roster.

Eh? I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you bothered that there is discussion of death metal on this forum? Even if we ignore the fact that you're the one who brought up vocal styles in this thread, Orphaned Land, Therion, and Raintime all appear under "death metal" at metal-archives.com. So I don't see how this can be considered off-topic for the board...one of the most-loved ProgPower performances had TWO growlers onstage!

Anyway, since you asked your question multiple times, I'll try mine again: why do you bring "talent" into the discussion of growled vocals? Why don't you just say "I don't like how they sound" and leave it at that? What extra benefit do you get by factoring "talent" into the equation?

BTW, I'm happy to talk about it, and I'm an expert at derailing threads....I guess I just had an odd moment of self-restraint earlier!

EDIT: ha, I didn't realize ...AndTimeBegan was listing the ProgPower "death metal" bands up there already. After Forever and Epica don't get the "death" tag at m-a, but of course Mercenary and Into Eternity certainly do; I'd forgotten about them.

Neil

 

[Jibrille]

Raintime would be considered a melodeath band by most and Into Eternity is often considered part of that style as well. However, considering the attack was against growlers in general, you have to acknowledge there have been plenty on the progpower stage.

 

[Jibrille]

Raintime would be considered a melodeath band by most and Into Eternity is often considered part of that style as well. However, considering the attack was against growlers in general, you have to acknowledge there have been plenty on the progpower stage.

 

[Magius]

Yeah, imagine that happening on the Prog/Power forum that is the web presecne for a festival that not once in it's 9 years and 120+ bands ever seen a death or black metal band on it's roster. But if you insist on voluntarily replying and keeping the debate going...

What?

 

[The Fiddler]

Eh? I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you bothered that there is discussion of death metal on this forum?

No, otherwise I wouldn't be participating in this thread. And where are you going with your OT question that begs an OT answer (i.e. question doesn't relate to the original post presenting numbers metal releases by genre)?

Glenn posted info about death and black metal releases outnumbering power releases. I shared my opinions on why I believe there are more death metal releases than power metal releases, namely the two vocal styles require different abilities (which I tried to quantify and compare with physically measurable talents like octave range, singing in key). You like numbers and measurements Neil, and I was just trying to support my opinion with something measurable, whether anyone agrees with my opinion or not.

But then you then posted...

It's not a matter of ability. Some of us just didn't want to turn this thread into another 'growls vs. clean' debate. But if you insist...

(So, who is the one who didn't want to debate "growls vs. clean?" You or me? :Smug

IMO, the required vocal abilities to make prog/power metal versus death metal are different, and influence the number of bands deciding to pursue the death metal vocal style (growl) versus the prog/power vocal style (clean). That's debatable of course, but it shouldn't be debatable (or a surprise) that a hypothesis such as mine would arise on a prog/power forum when the lead administrator posts stats and analysis for people to discuss. Maybe Glenn wasn't planning on anyone analyzing the "growls vs. clean" stats he posted for analysis. If that was the case, he should have just locked the thread as soon as he posted it.

 

[The Fiddler]

Eh? I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you bothered that there is discussion of death metal on this forum? Even if we ignore the fact that you're the one who brought up vocal styles in this thread, Orphaned Land, Therion, and Raintime all appear under "death metal" at metal-archives.com. So I don't see how this can be considered off-topic for the board...one of the most-loved ProgPower performances had TWO growlers onstage!l

Well then, I need to be a bit more clear:

Have bands with growly vocal elements or accents played ProgPower? Yes.

Do all those bands have vocalists that significantly utilize a clean and audible vocal style that I can enjoy and respect (not to mention cool riffs and well-thought lyrics). Overwhelmingly, Yes.

Can I appreciate the occasional growl to accentuate the angelic voice? Yes.

Do I compare the occasional growl to garlic in that, when used sparingly in the right places, it can make a meal that much more enjoyable, but when used in excess, it can spoil the entire meal? Yes.

Do I own CDs by Epica, After Forever, and Mercenary? Yes. Does this somehow automatically make me a fan of the death metal genre by association? No.

Do I group Therion, Mercenary, Orphaned Land, and Raintime into the same category as Cannibal Corpse, Anal Cunt, Gorefest, or Pungent Stench? No.

Do I consider Metal Archives the sole authority on all things metal? No.

Did I say I consider death metal to be "off topic" for this board? No.

 

[The Fiddler]

Mercenary, Orphaned Land, Into Eternity, and Therion can all be considered progressive death. After Forever and Epica can be considered power/death (the only time where power and death metal actually meet is with bands like these, Bodom, Norther etc) In other words, variations of death metal. Wrong again.

Mercenary, Orphaned Land, Into Eternity, and Therion utilize a clean vocal style as much or more than the death vocal style. There is no right or wrong to your opinion that they can be labeled as progressive death - that's your opinion. Would any of those bands pigeonhole themselves by labeling their music as only progressive death metal? I doubt it.

Given that the overwhelming majority of the vocals in After Forever and Epica are sung by classically trained vocalists, you're going to have a hard time convincing Floor and Simone that they are a variation of death metal or have their roots in death metal. Both bands utilize some growly voices sparingly when compared to the amount of clean and angelic voices, but certainly not enough to say that either band is more death metal than not.