Now Van's open to a reunion

[El Stormo]

Bands rarely know when they are off their peak. They are usually surrounded by yes men who value their job and will never speak honestly to them.

I know, I know, I've never disputed that. But that doesn't mean it isn't very much a reality that it's better to have a band that ends on a high note than one who keeps releasing shit albums.

And I'd say serious tensions between members can be a way of realizing creativity is going to suffer.

Then there's the fact lightning rarely strikes twice. Can you think of anyone who left a successful band and started a new one that did just as well?

Glenn Danzig, Rob Halford (Halford, but Fight too - they released very solid albums) Bruce Dickinson, King Diamond, Devin Townsend, but you're not counting solo artists... But yeah, Mustaine. I'd say Jason Newsted, but you can't really count him since Metallica was already big when he joined. Same reason you can't really count Tim Owens.

But there's Kai Hansen who left Helloween and started Gamma Ray. Same with Ralf Scheepers, who left Gamma Ray and started Primal Fear. Or Piet Sielck, who left Gamma Ray and started Iron Savior and is a major influence in Savage Circus.

Shit, that's a lot of Gamma Ray

Also Andy B. Franck, who started Symphorce after Ivanhoe. And then proceeded to turn Brainstorm into the band they are now. Jorn Lande, but I assume that also counts as a solo project? Roy Kahn went from Conception (criminally underrated band) to Kamelot. Chuck Shuldiner's Control Denied project certainly wasn't half bad. Dave Lombardo who went from Slayer to Grip Inc. (and back again). And then there's James Rivera, who's played in just about every fucking band in existence

Anyway, you're right of course, not trying to prove you wrong or anything. Was just wondering how much I could think of, off the top of my head

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

But Stormo, hardly any of those bands are what we could call "successful", wouldn't you agree? Jason Newstead in no way can claim any amount of success comparable to what Metallica achieved. The fact that Metallica was already big when he joined is a moot point. Anything Newstead was involved in afterward just plain sucked. I admire him for leaving - his reasons were more than valid - but was he successful? Not even remotely!

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

If you measure musical success by profit, I question your definition of success.

Even if only a handful of people listened to it, musical success would be knowing you created good music. That's enough for any songwriter or musician who doesn't have his head up his ass. Certainly wouldn't be enough for Jeff Loomis.

 

[derek]

Do you really know that, though, John? Can you really speak to his motives?

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

No, but I'd bet a few years of my life on it.

 

[El Stormo]

But Stormo, hardly any of those bands are what we could call "successful", wouldn't you agree? Jason Newstead in no way can claim any amount of success comparable to what Metallica achieved. The fact that Metallica was already big when he joined is a moot point. Anything Newstead was involved in afterward just plain sucked. I admire him for leaving - his reasons were more than valid - but was he successful? Not even remotely!

I'm talking about Flotsam & Jetsam -> Metallica. You do know Newsted was in a band before Metallica, yes?

And most of the bands, if not all, are respected in their genre. Maybe they're not shovelling in the cash, Metallica-style, but every metalhead can respect these bands, even if they don't like the genre.

 

[Dead Winter]

The bottom line is I don't understand where Loomis thought this whole solo gig was gonna go. He's either delusional or arrogant to think that enough people give a shit about a semi-underground metal guitarist's solo guitar wank album (however good it may be) to give him enough money on which to live comfortably. He's not Satriani and Malmsteen has done everything Loomis is doing, so I'm just puzzled why he split with NM to go do his solo thing. Had he just put the album out and continued with NM, I could understand, but leaving the only thing anyone cared about to go do some not-very-well-thought-out solo career that would appeal to only the most fringe of the minority is just puzzling. Furthermore, as I said before, it's not like he's breaking new ground or anything. It's total take-it-or-leave-it music.

I'm all for doing your own thing, and had Loomis sort of faded away into obscurity with his solo albums (like Buckethead) and wanted to leave the music industry forever, it would be much more interesting to hear what he put out. But he's doing tons of press, endorsements galore, clearly trying to get his face in the public eye and generate some money. So if you want more exposure, more money, more attention, why leave the very thing that got you that attention for something that's quite frankly a lesser carbon copy of it? Nevermore weren't what you'd call a financially successful band, but they were/are a successful band. They generated enough money to live on their music, and that's all anyone could ask for. It sounds to me like Jeff got greedy, wanted more of the spotlight and sorta threw an "I'm running away!" tantrum, only to find out that the people who love him love him for what NM created as a whole, not individually. The sum of the parts of NM is greater than each one.

I hope he's happy with his mediocre fame. John sometimes goes off the deep end a bit (as do I) but he's right when he says a lot of the stuff he's doing is just for money and attention, and that's no way to solidify your legacy. People want songs, not scales.

Also, I think John meant "dark" as opposed to "goth". I know what he's saying, though, AND HE'S RIGHT. Warrel may not have the mohawk and fishnet stocking sleeves, but he has a strong connection to the REAL goth scene. Hell, he covered The Tea Party on NM's last album and The Sisters of Mercy on his solo album. Also John, come to Rome if you wanna see a real goth scene, complete with melodrama and elitism and perversion. Like Mah said, it's just gone back to the fringe where it belongs. There are no Hot Topics here and you'll never find a goth store in a mall.

 

[Traxan]

Nah I have to disagree with you Dead. I'm sticking to my midlife crisis theory. Jeff turned 40 last year and had spent his whole adult life with a band that had been passed by (criminally so) while its opening acts shot past it. Remember, I said the first time I saw Nevermore, Shadows Fall was third on the bill? If they went on tour today, Nevermore would open for them. That's gotta hurt. Hopefully he'll get a good sideman job like Broderick.

No one works as hard as Jeff undoubtedly did to get that good and not be recognized. I don't doubt he wants recognition beyond the Guitar World/Player crowd. I just question his reading of the headwinds. We are in an era where guitar solos are still considered a no-no thanks to the grunge and alt-pop crowd of the 90s. This mentality even poisoned Rush and Metallica, as 'Vapor Trails' and 'St. Anger' were devoid of solos. So does he think he can single-handedly change that attitude? Good luck to that, I say.

He's a dead man if he sticks to the metal scene. Musicians need to be versatile to survive. At least 3-4 80s metal musicians are working with the Blue Man Group in Vegas, and a lot of Extreme's remaining fans and rock fans in general were seriously pissed off to see a guitarist of the caliber of Nuno Bettencourt working as a sideman for Rihanna. But it paid Nuno's bills, probably handsomely, and word is he had a few moments to shine during the shows. Plus he got to stare at Rihanna's ass every night and get paid. Can't beat that.

(I couldn't imagine the howls in this place if Jeff took a gig as her backing guitarist, but boy would it be fun to see the reactions here)

But if Jeff goes in the opposite direction toward death metal like he is hinting, well, he won't make much of a living here. Might as well pack up for Europe now. Did you see that interview with Malevolent Creation where they said they gave up on the U.S.?

 

[Traxan]

Anyway, you're right of course, not trying to prove you wrong or anything. Was just wondering how much I could think of, off the top of my head

I can only think of one: Ted Nugent. He left the Amboy Dukes, which were doing well, to go solo. Had a great solo career, joined Damned Yankees, had his biggest hits ever. Say what you will about the politics but the dude's musical career has been charmed.

 

[Dead Winter]

Nah I have to disagree with you Dead. I'm sticking to my midlife crisis theory. Jeff turned 40 last year and had spent his whole adult life with a band that had been passed by (criminally so) while its opening acts shot past it. Remember, I said the first time I saw Nevermore, Shadows Fall was third on the bill? If they went on tour today, Nevermore would open for them. That's gotta hurt. Hopefully he'll get a good sideman job like Broderick.

No one works as hard as Jeff undoubtedly did to get that good and not be recognized. I don't doubt he wants recognition beyond the Guitar World/Player crowd. I just question his reading of the headwinds. We are in an era where guitar solos are still considered a no-no thanks to the grunge and alt-pop crowd of the 90s. This mentality even poisoned Rush and Metallica, as 'Vapor Trails' and 'St. Anger' were devoid of solos. So does he think he can single-handedly change that attitude? Good luck to that, I say.

He's a dead man if he sticks to the metal scene. Musicians need to be versatile to survive. At least 3-4 80s metal musicians are working with the Blue Man Group in Vegas, and a lot of Extreme's remaining fans and rock fans in general were seriously pissed off to see a guitarist of the caliber of Nuno Bettencourt working as a sideman for Rihanna. But it paid Nuno's bills, probably handsomely, and word is he had a few moments to shine during the shows. Plus he got to stare at Rihanna's ass every night and get paid. Can't beat that.

(I couldn't imagine the howls in this place if Jeff took a gig as her backing guitarist, but boy would it be fun to see the reactions here)

But if Jeff goes in the opposite direction toward death metal like he is hinting, well, he won't make much of a living here. Might as well pack up for Europe now. Did you see that interview with Malevolent Creation where they said they gave up on the U.S.?

Metal's always been bigger and purer on this side of the pond. It gets more whored-out in the US when it's popular to do so, but people eat, sleep, and breathe metal here and it doesn't matter which kind or from which era or what the current trend is. I'm gonna search that video of MC talking about giving up on the states. But at the same time, they dug their own grave. It's not 1996 anymore, and death metal is just dull now. It has reached its peak and now is just a pissing contest to see who can play the fastest, play the most insane solos and blast and kick the fastest.

I can understand his frustration but I think you're right about him needing to branch out and play different styles. The thing is, if he wanted to be rich and famous he should have gone to law school or become a doctor or a Wall Street banker. I really can't stand this notion that just because we want to be paid handsomely for our music that the world is automatically required to do so simply because we're good at our instruments. I'll take grunge any day...ANY DAY over 80's butt rock or post-grunge or metalcore or any of the other terrible core-music bands around today. At least it was real and not predicated on anything, unlike many bands today who pretend to play music because they love music but then piss on their fans for downloading their music, causing them to "only" earn like 50k per year. Boo hoo. If I could earn 10k per year just off of my music, I'd fucking retire.

Jeff needs to decide whether he wants to be a musician or a rock star. I think it's clear now that he's never gonna be a multi-millionaire rock star, so he should just focus on writing really fantastic music. If he needs more money than he earns from his music, endorsements, clinics, etc., he should find a job within the industry. He could be a guitar tech for a big band (easily a six-figure per year salary) or do like Nuno. I'm not saying he's complaining or is unhappy or is bitter because I have no idea what's in his mind, but there are a lot of musicians out there blaming the world for not liking their music or the internet for downloading, etc. and no one seems to be rising to the challenge. Mastodon is doing well. Gojira is doing well. They're not millionaires but they're doing well. I understand Brent from Mastodon had a few things to say about downloading and how it's taking a cut from his pocket, but that's progress and that's life.

Bands need to be happy with what they have; it's still just art. They're creating things that make people feel nice emotionally; they're not curing cancer.

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

Well said, my friend.

 

[Super Mahrio]

The bottom line is I don't understand where Loomis thought this whole solo gig was gonna go. He's either delusional or arrogant to think that enough people give a shit about a semi-underground metal guitarist's solo guitar wank album (however good it may be) to give him enough money on which to live comfortably. He's not Satriani and Malmsteen has done everything Loomis is doing, so I'm just puzzled why he split with NM to go do his solo thing. Had he just put the album out and continued with NM, I could understand, but leaving the only thing anyone cared about to go do some not-very-well-thought-out solo career that would appeal to only the most fringe of the minority is just puzzling. Furthermore, as I said before, it's not like he's breaking new ground or anything. It's total take-it-or-leave-it music.

I'm all for doing your own thing, and had Loomis sort of faded away into obscurity with his solo albums (like Buckethead) and wanted to leave the music industry forever, it would be much more interesting to hear what he put out. But he's doing tons of press, endorsements galore, clearly trying to get his face in the public eye and generate some money. So if you want more exposure, more money, more attention, why leave the very thing that got you that attention for something that's quite frankly a lesser carbon copy of it? Nevermore weren't what you'd call a financially successful band, but they were/are a successful band. They generated enough money to live on their music, and that's all anyone could ask for. It sounds to me like Jeff got greedy, wanted more of the spotlight and sorta threw an "I'm running away!" tantrum, only to find out that the people who love him love him for what NM created as a whole, not individually. The sum of the parts of NM is greater than each one.

I hope he's happy with his mediocre fame. John sometimes goes off the deep end a bit (as do I) but he's right when he says a lot of the stuff he's doing is just for money and attention, and that's no way to solidify your legacy. People want songs, not scales.

Also, I think John meant "dark" as opposed to "goth". I know what he's saying, though, AND HE'S RIGHT. Warrel may not have the mohawk and fishnet stocking sleeves, but he has a strong connection to the REAL goth scene. Hell, he covered The Tea Party on NM's last album and The Sisters of Mercy on his solo album. Also John, come to Rome if you wanna see a real goth scene, complete with melodrama and elitism and perversion. Like Mah said, it's just gone back to the fringe where it belongs. There are no Hot Topics here and you'll never find a goth store in a mall.

I really had no idea that Jeff was doing a bunch of endorsements. (lol me keeping up with metal these days. ahahaa ahh...nah.) But it does sound like someone wants to be big man on campus. Guys like Joe Satriani and Malmsteen do explore quite a bit in their music anyway. I agree that Loomis hasnt quite earned the same sort of status that those other two have.

Also DW, San Francisco's goth scene isnt exactly vanilla either.

 

[Dead Winter]

I just saw that video of MC talking about giving up touring the states, and I have to agree. It's just not financially or logistically feasible for underground bands to do big tours and ask decent money for each show. The US is too big. Everyone comes to Italy for every tour they do...EVERYONE. Why? Because every city they stop at is like two hours from the previous one. Dark Tranquillity is famous for coming to Italy every time they do a tour; it's their favorite place. Why? Well, aside from all the wine and food they get for free and partying and chicks and stuff, every city is two hours from the next. They come to Venice then they go to Milan (4 hours) then Bologna (3 hours) then Rome (3 hours), then they drive for 6-8 hours to Germany and do the same there. That's not counting all the festivals in between.

Bands coming to the US have a much, much more difficult time because unless you're on the east coast, people usually have to drive something like 3-4 hours just to come to the show, and death metal just isn't big enough to support that type of touring life. So you have fewer crowds, fewer places in which to play, fewer promoters, etc., and I can completely understand their frustration. Either they stop touring the US or they all become pop stars. There are no more rock stars, only pop stars...so if you wanna make money playing heavy music, your best bet is to either be a roadie or get hired by Metallica.

 

[Captain Beard]

I can't parse who MC is.

 

[Dead Winter]

I really had no idea that Jeff was doing a bunch of endorsements. (lol me keeping up with metal these days. ahahaa ahh...nah.) But it does sound like someone wants to be big man on campus. Guys like Joe Satriani and Malmsteen do explore quite a bit in their music anyway. I agree that Loomis hasnt quite earned the same sort of status that those other two have.

Also DW, San Francisco's goth scene isnt exactly vanilla either.

Yeah it's like that in most big cities, goth is goth. That'll never change, imo. What has changed, like you said, is that it has mainly returned TO the big cities where it belongs...not because they're somehow better but because it's just a more fitting situation and culture. Seeing goth shops in Pecanland Mall in Monroe, Louisiana just makes me do a giant facepalm. The darkest and most goth thing about neighboring cities Ruston (where I'm from) and Monroe is that it's the setting for True Blood...and that's it.

All my friends in Rome are either goths or metalheads, and the goth scene itself is ridiculous just due to the extent they take it. I love my friends but a lot of them are fucked up people. Actually, all but one are fucked up. Everything is done in excess, from drugs, to sex, to their lifestyle, etc. They do nothing but live in this uninhibited world of goths that's exacerbated by the fact it's in Rome. Romans are by themselves wild and unhinged people, but add the goth aspect to that and it's volatile. Their sex lives are things taken straight from Caligula's handbook. Everything is to the extreme and they never grow out of it; they've been doing this for 20 years and they'll keep doing it until they die. I'm all for doing your own thing but this is a whole different set of rules they're operating under compared to other people and even other goth scenes. Sure it's fun and exciting for a while, but it's scary when you realize that there are no lines drawn, no limitations, no sense of right and wrong. And of course, being goths they celebrate that because they feel that any sort of boundary whatsoever placed upon their lives is anathema.

I admire them for their tenacity and their free-spirited lifestyle, but I really wouldn't want to live that every day. Orgies, sex cults, hardcore S&M (the really serious and borderline fucked up shit)...everyone's into it and everyone does it, and they do it often. The amount of drugs in this scene looks like a trafficking cartel. I'm more unnerved by some of these people than I am mafia or n'drangheta or camorra. Naturally, not everyone in the scene participates, but they're the minority and everyone is connected somehow. I've seen scenes from all over but I've never seen a scene that takes it as seriously and to the extent as this one. I'm no goth and neither am I an expert, so I can only share my experience with it. It's a lot of fun for a while here but when you realize that everything is real, it's sobering. Consequently, nothing's shocking anymore to me. Friend X has another problem this week. His ex-gf who is now his roommate and still fuck buddy is now fucking his best friend AND his new female love interest, who is also fucking his best friend, and all this happened over the past few weeks of his best friend and he fucking his ex gf, his ex gf and her new gf fucking him simultaneously, and then of course all of them fucking together. On top of that, ALL of them fuck someone new at least once a week. These are the more normal, straight-forward relationships .

 

[Dead Winter]

I can't parse who MC is.

 

[Traxan]

Jeff doing endorsements is nothing new. It's usually how bands survive. It brings in some extra money and/or free gear.

Touring America is also a major turnoff for foreign bands now. The fucknuts at ICE and the TSA make getting a Visa impossible for bands. Every foreign band I've spoken to since 9/11 has said touring the U.S. is a pain in the ass.

As for Jeff, I hope he gets a gig with Slayer. Yes I'll explain. If you've read the interviews with Kerry lately, it's becoming pretty obvious Jeff Hahnemann won't be able to return to the road. He can write with the band but he lost too much of his arm to get his strength back and play a full set. All he's good for is one or two songs. Gary Holt has filled in for 18 months but he has Exodus and can't do both bands at once. So my hope is Slayer hires Loomis to be a full-time touring guitarist. It will be a much-deserved payday, it'll give Nevermore a little bit of publicity and Slayer will finally have a guitarist with skills to match Lombardo. And if Slayer decide to throw in a Nevermore cover or two, we'll get the comedy of watching Kerry try to keep up with Jeff.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Um, what? He's the one who quit and didn't tell Warrel. WD said he learned the news reading Blabbermouth.That's not a cool way to handle things.

I didn't say he handled it well, did I? I just said it shouldn't be surprising that he wanted to do his own thing.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

Jeff with Slayer? LOL. I can't even imagine it. It's be like LeBron James signing a one year contract with a D League team.

It's totally pointless to say, "I don't know what Jeff is trying to achieve by starting a solo band." Of course we don't know, because we're not Jeff. We're all speculating too much, which admittedly is fun, but just makes things more convoluted. Jeff left Nevermore because the band was obviously fighting with each other. I talked to him about this face-to-face for a few hours here in Nanjing less than a year ago and he simply told me that he had had enough. He said nothing bad about WD or anyone else in the band. He just wanted to have his own thing for a while. He didn't have the motivation for NM, and thought that he had taken the band as far as he could take it on a musical level. There was obviously tons of stuff going on behind the scenes with the professionalism of the band as well, which he didn't get into, but that we have all read about in the press.

Bottom line is that right now, no matter how much fame he is earning or how much money he is making, Jeff is simply enjoying himself. He's opening a new chapter in his life, writing music, going back on stage playing, collaborating with others, and just having fun. I am sure that one day he will get back with NM and when he does, we'll all be glad that this happened. A breath of fresh air can - and I believe will - give new life to Nevermore.

 

[Captain Beard]

Jeff with Slayer? LOL. I can't even imagine it. It's be like LeBron James signing a one year contract with a D League team.

Kinda mean, calling Jeff a D League team.